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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2013, 05:43 PM
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A set of KB pistons & Scat rods can be had for a hair over $500.
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Old 10-02-2013, 08:41 AM
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I want to update you guys..as I always said, I wanted to build this engine the cheapest power, as I just need a daily driver but my "race engine" builder was too picky and wanted to replace everything making it way out of my budget, so he rebuilt my heads, for the trade we worked out, and I picked up my engine and all the parts.I took it to another highly recommended builder in my area and the first thing he said was return that new crank, your stock one will work fine(he will machine it).He micro the cylinders and recommended bore to 30 over,he said stock rods are fine and agreed, with my 274 cam, we will go with flat top pistons.He checked everything and he says my compression ratio is 9.9. He is doing all machine work and building it to a long block for $740.00 and I have $705.00 in parts. I have a edelbrock perfomer rpm intake and will have to get a new carb. but overall I think this will work for a peppy daily driver I am looking for.What do you guys think?

Last edited by gmtony55; 10-02-2013 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 10-02-2013, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Silver Surfer View Post
(but again dished pistons don't give you proper squish).
Some do. That's why I like KB hypers with a D-cup. Plenty of flat area to facilitate a good squish and a D-dish to facilitate lowering the static compression ratio to where you want it.
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Old 10-02-2013, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmtony55 View Post
I want to update you guys..as I always said, I wanted to build this engine the cheapest power, as I just need a daily driver but my "race engine" builder was too picky and wanted to replace everything making it way out of my budget, so he rebuilt my heads, for the trade we worked out, and I picked up my engine and all the parts.I took it to another highly recommended builder in my area and the first thing he said was return that new crank, your stock one will work fine(he will machine it).He micro the cylinders and recommended bore to 30 over,he said stock rods are fine and agreed, with my 274 cam, we will go with flat top pistons.He checked everything and he says my compression ratio is 9.9. He is doing all machine work and building it to a long block for $740.00 and I have $705.00 in parts. I have a edelbrock perfomer rpm intake and will have to get a new carb. but overall I think this will work for a peppy daily driver I am looking for.What do you guys think?
Now you are dealing with someone who is willing to give the customer what you want , instead of building you a race engine you can't afford and weren't looking for to begin with .

This is a fine plan. Since you are going to buy pistins anyway, you may want to ask you builder if he can set you up with a set of rebuilt stock GM 5.7" rods, instead of the shorty 5.565" 400 rods. These can be gotten for around $100 mail order if the shop doesn't have any around. Pistons will be the same price, and the longer 5.7" rods decreases bore wear - the short 400 rods shove the piston into the cylinder walls(side thrust) a bit hard.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Some do. That's why I like KB hypers with a D-cup. Plenty of flat area to facilitate a good squish and a D-dish to facilitate lowering the static compression ratio to where you want it.
Semantics. I meant a factory full dish piston. You are right D-dish would give proper squish.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmtony55 View Post
I want to update you guys..as I always said, I wanted to build this engine the cheapest power, as I just need a daily driver but my "race engine" builder was too picky and wanted to replace everything making it way out of my budget, so he rebuilt my heads, for the trade we worked out, and I picked up my engine and all the parts.I took it to another highly recommended builder in my area and the first thing he said was return that new crank, your stock one will work fine(he will machine it).He micro the cylinders and recommended bore to 30 over,he said stock rods are fine and agreed, with my 274 cam, we will go with flat top pistons.He checked everything and he says my compression ratio is 9.9. He is doing all machine work and building it to a long block for $740.00 and I have $705.00 in parts. I have a edelbrock perfomer rpm intake and will have to get a new carb. but overall I think this will work for a peppy daily driver I am looking for.What do you guys think?
What do I think?

1. I think it is a mistake to build an iron-headed motor with a static compression ratio higher than 9.5:1. No matter what fuel is available at the pump today, it will be a lesser quality tomorrow. The Feds will see to that.

2. I think it is a mistake to use a flat tappet cam.

3. I think it is a mistake to use an "Extreme Energy" grind in a daily driver motor. You do not need the snappy valve action. You need nice, long ramps that will contribute to a nice, long, easy life for the cam and lifters. If you were needing another 10 hp in class racing, where you needed the extra power to drive around your competition, and maintenence intervals were short, then maybe an XE would be the ticket.

4. I think I should figure the static compression ratio for you. What is the part number of the piston? What is the block deck height of the block? What is the part number of the cam you will use? What is the block deck height? Has either shop mentioned checking the main bearing bores for being round and parallel?
Has either shop mentioned what piston deck height you will end up with or how much the decks need to be cut?

5. I think you and everyone else who will build a motor should understand that the camshaft and torque converter are the last two items to be purchased for a combination. It freaks me out that you guys start with a camshaft purchase and no idea of what the static compression ratio will be. Bass-ackwards.

6. I think you should have built the motor at 9.0:1 static compression ratio using ~16cc D-cup dished pistons and this Howards retro-fit hydraulic roller cam. It would make a brute street motor that would run on cat-piss pump gas with the proper 0.035" to 0.045" squish.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-cl110225-12
You don't need a cam that will require a looser torque converter. For a mild street motor like this, use the stock converter and a camshaft that will support it.
You want the cam to begin making power at idle or a little higher (800-1000 rpm's).

Last edited by techinspector1; 10-02-2013 at 11:46 AM.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 11:52 AM
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Sorry for the duplicate post. Please omit post #66.
It really, really irritates me that I have only a half hour to edit. It takes me longer than that to get some posts written correctly and edit them correctly.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 01:31 PM
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I agree with almost everything Tech posted. Sounds like the first engine builder was a pro.
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Old 10-02-2013, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
What do I think?

1. I think it is a mistake to build an iron-headed motor with a static compression ratio higher than 9.5:1. No matter what fuel is available at the pump today, it will be a lesser quality tomorrow. The Feds will see to that.

2. I think it is a mistake to use a flat tappet cam.

3. I think it is a mistake to use an "Extreme Energy" grind in a daily driver motor. You do not need the snappy valve action. You need nice, long ramps that will contribute to a nice, long, easy life for the cam and lifters. If you were needing another 10 hp in class racing, where you needed the extra power to drive around your competition, and maintenence intervals were short, then maybe an XE would be the ticket.

4. I think I should figure the static compression ratio for you. What is the part number of the piston? What is the block deck height of the block? What is the part number of the cam you will use? What is the block deck height? Has either shop mentioned checking the main bearing bores for being round and parallel?
Has either shop mentioned what piston deck height you will end up with or how much the decks need to be cut?

5. I think you and everyone else who will build a motor should understand that the camshaft and torque converter are the last two items to be purchased for a combination. It freaks me out that you guys start with a camshaft purchase and no idea of what the static compression ratio will be. Bass-ackwards.

6. I think you should have built the motor at 9.0:1 static compression ratio using ~16cc D-cup dished pistons and this Howards retro-fit hydraulic roller cam. It would make a brute street motor that would run on cat-piss pump gas with the proper 0.035" to 0.045" squish.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-cl110225-12
You don't need a cam that will require a looser torque converter. For a mild street motor like this, use the stock converter and a camshaft that will support it.
You want the cam to begin making power at idle or a little higher (800-1000 rpm's).
All I can say to this post is "WOW" after reading this it makes me want to call the guy and say just throw it all in the garbage I will ride my 240,000 mile 305 till it dies. I know I asked "what you think?" but I didnt expect all the doom and gloom you are given. Right out the box I think you missed a couple things.

1. You put a link to a cam shaft that cost $579.00 Just the cam would cost more than all the parts total I bought.
2. I didnt pick this cam the builder did. I told him what I wanted and he did the recommending,Who was I to question a 60 year old race shop owner?

Tech, I dont know if you mean your post to be condesending,but this one came across that way. That being said I know you know what you are talking about and I appreciate the fact that you care enough to answer my post and try to help all of us on this site. I wish I had a quarter of your knowledge it would help me a lot.

Last edited by gmtony55; 10-02-2013 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 10-02-2013, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
I agree with almost everything Tech posted. Sounds like the first engine builder was a pro.
No doubt he can build you a great engine for 10 to 12 grand,as he wins everywhere he races. but he is the same pro that picked my cam,which it seems was all wrong. I do thank you for all your input.
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Old 10-02-2013, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ericnova72 View Post
Now you are dealing with someone who is willing to give the customer what you want , instead of building you a race engine you can't afford and weren't looking for to begin with .

This is a fine plan. Since you are going to buy pistins anyway, you may want to ask you builder if he can set you up with a set of rebuilt stock GM 5.7" rods, instead of the shorty 5.565" 400 rods. These can be gotten for around $100 mail order if the shop doesn't have any around. Pistons will be the same price, and the longer 5.7" rods decreases bore wear - the short 400 rods shove the piston into the cylinder walls(side thrust) a bit hard.
I called my builder and he was already doing the 5.7 rods for me. He says he has plenty of them. He explained the same bore wear you described..thanks
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Old 10-02-2013, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by gmtony55 View Post
All I can say to this post is "WOW" after reading this it makes me want to call the guy and say just throw it all in the garbage I will ride my 240,000 mile 305 till it dies. I know I asked "what you think?" but I didnt expect all the doom and gloom you are given. Right out the box I think you missed a couple things.

1. You put a link to a cam shaft that cost $579.00 Just the cam would cost more than all the parts total I bought.
You need to be able to discern doom and gloom from REALITY.
Just wait until you have to tear the motor down....AGAIN....to clean out all the shrapnel from a fragged flat tappet cam and you won't be worried about the additional sheckels for a roller so much. An XE flat tappet cam is just asking for trouble. The race motor guy isn't so much concerned about flat tappet cams with a high hydraulic intensity because the fellows he builds motors for have a different maintenance schedule than you will have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmtony55 View Post
2. I didnt pick this cam the builder did. I told him what I wanted and he did the recommending,Who was I to question a 60 year old race shop owner?
No matter who chose it, it's a poor choice for a daily driver in my humble opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmtony55 View Post
Tech, I dont know if you mean your post to be condesending,but this one came across that way. That being said I know you know what you are talking about and I appreciate the fact that you care enough to answer my post and try to help all of us on this site. I wish I had a quarter of your knowledge it would help me a lot.
When you reach my age, you will have a propensity to tell it like it is, just like I do. I don't dance around the maypole and tell you what you want to hear. I tell you the TRUTH, based on my 50-plus years of experience building motors and hanging around drag strips, whether or not it sits well on your ear. Sometimes I do write things that are condescending, but this was not one of those times.

Last edited by techinspector1; 10-02-2013 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 10-02-2013, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
You need to be able to discern doom and gloom from REALITY.
Just wait until you have to tear the motor down....AGAIN....to clean out all the shrapnel from a fragged flat tappet cam and you won't be worried about the additional sheckels for a roller so much. An XE flat tappet cam is just asking for trouble. The race motor guy isn't so much concerned about flat tappet cams because the fellows he builds motors for have a different maintenance schedule than you will have.


No matter who chose it, it's a poor choice for a daily driver in my humble opinion.


When you reach my age, you will have a propensity to tell it like it is, just like I do. I don't dance around the maypole and tell you what you want to hear. I tell you the TRUTH, whether or not it sits well on your ear. Sometimes I do write things that are condescending, but this was not one of those times.
I hear ya buddy on all levels of post. I will have to live with this "mistake" as my new builder is already rolling with build and he feels this combo will be good for the money. And for me it is all about money. I never had the money to start this build in the first place, the build was supposed to be free as I traded him an ls7 engine with a small hole in block. deal all fell apart and forced me into decisions I could not afford to make..It will be a couple of months before I have the money to buy a carb and distributor. and that my friend is the REALITY as i have it..thanks for your input.
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Old 10-02-2013, 04:50 PM
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The flat tappet cams re not the problem. The problem is using the wrong oil
and doing a crappy break in job.

Reduce the valve springs pressure for the cam break in.
Let the cam and lifters etc get friendly with each other first, then
install the high perf valve springs or re install the inner spring ( dual spring)
and or set the required installed height and pressure.

Be sure the lash is set correctly and the engine is correctly timed etc so it can start up
immediately and run for 25-35 minutes at 2500++rpm.
With out excessive cranking.

Then set the spring pressure up.
I use this stuff in my oil help prevent wear in flat tappet cams
It has moly and zinc in it and has been around for 40 years.

I recommend you get some. In the USA it is called Mr Moly.
Molyslip Canada Inc. :: Molybdenum Lubricants, Performance Lubricants, Copaslip Anti-Seize, EP2 Grease, Wear Reducing Lubricants, Oil Additive MolySlip E oil supplement.

Moly disulfide is proven anti wear anti scuff anti friction automotive-industrial technology.
it works.

After the initial run in I reduce the dose to 1/2 the can of MolySlip E on each oil change.
It is widely available. Pretty easy.

The bother time and effort to reduce the valve spring pressure for the cam breakin run and then reset it to spec again after the cam is all broke in is a LOT LESS bother than changing a wornout cam and lifters.
This reduced valve spring pressure + the Moly Slip and some Moly disulfide paste on the cam lobes allows the new cam and lifter and the rockers etc etc to get friendly with each other without scuffing, excess heat, excess friction..

There are various different ways and methods to reduce the valve spring pressure.
Look at a stock OEM low rpm engine the typical very modest easy valve spring seat and open pressure is there like that for a reason. Take that as a clue. Once the cam is all broke in, you can then re-set the valve spring pressure and you are good to go.

Depending on the cam lift used and the engine type and the springs, sometimes but not always a stock OEM valve spring can be used installed at its max allowable installed height to give lots of lift clearance yet light modest valve spring pressure.

Stock BBC springs are the ones you got to watch out for. Some coil bind real easy at like .450" lift.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to recognize that if you are breakin in two rubbing direct contact metal parts
thtat reduced pressure, lots of oil flow and Moly in that oil will really help these new parts get friendly so they can last a long time.

Ya it matters. And its not that hard.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 10-02-2013 at 05:18 PM.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 05:19 PM
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Hey Tony.Had to go back & reread this thing so I could freshen my memory.I know you gotta be frustrated.LOL.This thing has changed directions on ya 2 or 3 times & took on a life of it's own.I understand your situation & what you're trying to accomplish.So,@ this point,let's try to get ya the best with what ya got.Tech's info is correct about the flat tappet cams,etc & as F'bird said the problem is the oils we have today.Follow his instructions for break in & maintenance & you should be OK. IDK what plans your builder has for the build so I'm guessin on some stuff.With the CR your gonna be @,it's gonna be critical to have a good quench & a spot on tune.From my calculations,your SCR is gonna be 9.9:1.Your DCR is gonna be @ 8.5:1 based on the following assumptions.IDK which piston your using.A 400 w/ 5.7 rods can use a 1.425" pin hgt,or, a 1.433 pin hgt.If block isn't cut,I'd recommend the 1.433".That would give you a .045 quench w/ a .028 headgasket.If he is using the 1.425,I strongly recommend that he remove .008 to .010 from the deck.You could use a .015 shim gasket,but,IDK how well it will seal w/o a fresh surface.I would definitely push him to get the proper quench wether thru piston hgt,gasket,or machining block.Proper quench,good tune,& adequate cooling is gonna be very important with your CR.My calcs were based on a 7cc flat top w/ a 1.433 pin hgt(.017 deck hgt),a .028 gasket & 5.7 rod.Be sure to follow the proper breakin procedure for the cam & go burn some rubber !!!
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