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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jokerZ71 View Post
Hey Tony.Had to go back & reread this thing so I could freshen my memory.I know you gotta be frustrated.LOL.This thing has changed directions on ya 2 or 3 times & took on a life of it's own.I understand your situation & what you're trying to accomplish.So,@ this point,let's try to get ya the best with what ya got.Tech's info is correct about the flat tappet cams,etc & as F'bird said the problem is the oils we have today.Follow his instructions for break in & maintenance & you should be OK. IDK what plans your builder has for the build so I'm guessin on some stuff.With the CR your gonna be @,it's gonna be critical to have a good quench & a spot on tune.From my calculations,your SCR is gonna be 9.9:1.Your DCR is gonna be @ 8.5:1 based on the following assumptions.IDK which piston your using.A 400 w/ 5.7 rods can use a 1.425" pin hgt,or, a 1.433 pin hgt.If block isn't cut,I'd recommend the 1.433".That would give you a .045 quench w/ a .028 headgasket.If he is using the 1.425,I strongly recommend that he remove .008 to .010 from the deck.You could use a .015 shim gasket,but,IDK how well it will seal w/o a fresh surface.I would definitely push him to get the proper quench wether thru piston hgt,gasket,or machining block.Proper quench,good tune,& adequate cooling is gonna be very important with your CR.My calcs were based on a 7cc flat top w/ a 1.433 pin hgt(.017 deck hgt),a .028 gasket & 5.7 rod.Be sure to follow the proper breakin procedure for the cam & go burn some rubber !!!
Thanks for all your time and effort in giving me these figures. And yes I have been frustrated but learning can be that way sometimes. I will use all the info here and on f'birds great advice and try to be successful. One thing is for sure I will report back with my results.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 07:32 PM
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There is more to making a flat tappet cam live than has been mentioned here so far. Please read through this tutorial a couple of times to make sure you understand how to "try" to make a flat tappet cam live.....
5 of us, including 2 moderators, wrote this.
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...ips_and_tricks
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
There is more to making a flat tappet cam live than has been mentioned here so far. Please read through this tutorial a couple of times to make sure you understand how to "try" to make a flat tappet cam live.....
5 of us, including 2 moderators, wrote this.
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...ips_and_tricks
Thank you so much. I had no idea so much was involved, but I will learn it.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2013, 09:00 PM
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Tony-these thread's advise might seem to the OP that I (we) want the OP to go on a spending spree.The truth of it I (we) are telling the OP short money spent twice is never cheaper. So early on in this thread I do believe I suggested to spend the $300 to $500 for a hydo roller conversion. Along with sonic checking the thin wall 400 block and finish bore size with torque plates having the pistons in the hands of the machine shop.Really,not trying to be a Bass Hat here Tony.My point is I (we) try real hard to scout ahead for OP's builds and in a the long run,are trying to save them money.

Again as I did before Tony,I wish all the best on your build,

Gary
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Old 10-03-2013, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
Tony-these thread's advise might seem to the OP that I (we) want the OP to go on a spending spree.The truth of it I (we) are telling the OP short money spent twice is never cheaper. So early on in this thread I do believe I suggested to spend the $300 to $500 for a hydo roller conversion. Along with sonic checking the thin wall 400 block and finish bore size with torque plates having the pistons in the hands of the machine shop.Really,not trying to be a Bass Hat here Tony.My point is I (we) try real hard to scout ahead for OP's builds and in a the long run,are trying to save them money.

Again as I did before Tony,I wish all the best on your build,

Gary
Thanks Gary, I still dont see what is so wrong with a flat tappet cam,engines have ran good and strong with them for years especially if you do a good break in like tech1 and f'bird sent me. I am a little worried that my builder wont take the time to do all the things required to help the cam live but you have to put trust in some people some time.

Last edited by gmtony55; 10-03-2013 at 07:28 AM.
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2013, 08:50 AM
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another thing,the roller cams make better power.This is a reason to use one
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2013, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmtony55 View Post
Thanks Gary, I still dont see what is so wrong with a flat tappet cam,engines have ran good and strong with them for years.
The following paragraphs are quoted from Crower Cams......

"For more than 70 years ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate, containing Zinc and Phosphorus) was a mainstay of motor oil, providing trouble-free engine protection. The E.P.A. has now forced most ZDDP from domestic motor oil, including diesel oils. This lack of zinc and phosphorus is most severe in the just-released 'SN' (ILSAC GF-5) rated oils.

If your engine was designed prior to the 1990s, or if you're running a modern high performance motor with a flat tappet camshaft, your non-roller lifters require ZDDP zinc oil additive to prevent metal-to-metal contact and subsequent deterioration. Newer testing, mentioned in one oil manufacturer's advertising, also attributes piston scuffing to the decreased levels of zinc and phosphorus.

Don't let metal-to-metal contact destroy your new engine a 4oz's (1 bottle) of ZDDPlus added at every 4 to 5 quart oil change provides the correct amounts of zinc and phosphorus in your oil, protecting your investment.

ZDDPlus contains the proper amount of ZDDP to give at least 0.18% zinc and 0.13% phosphorus level when a single 4 ounce bottle is added to a 5-quart oil change. This level of zinc and phosphorus is the level designed into pre-OBDII oils. Using ZDDPlus affords you total control over the choice of oil brand and viscosity, ensuring the protection of your flat tappet motor. ZDDPlus is compatible with any oil, including synthetics, and is compatible with the additive packages present in any modern-day oil. ZDDPlus does nothing more than put the exact same molecules, zinc and phosphorus, back into your motor oil, that the manufacturers were forced to take out due to EPA regulations!"

Buy it here.....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-86092

That's not the whole story though, I'm convinced that increased hydraulic intensity has something to do with it. (think Voodoo, Extreme Energy grinds)

Last edited by techinspector1; 10-03-2013 at 09:22 AM.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2013, 09:05 AM
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Richard,a question re above statement.
Lets say I go on a short road trip and I develop an oil leak, what happens if I top up my oil to get to my destination and don't have the additive? How long can I drive without worrying about cam failure?
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2013, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
Richard,a question re above statement.
Lets say I go on a short road trip and I develop an oil leak, what happens if I top up my oil to get to my destination and don't have the additive? How long can I drive without worrying about cam failure?
Ummmm, maybe 15 or 20 feet?
I don't know Vinnie. Never have seen test results from such a situation/problem.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2013, 09:29 AM
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After using Brad Penn or Gibbs break-in oil and then changing the oil to the Brad Penn or Gibbs oil,I would hope as I do when purchasing oil for oil changes,you would buy a extra qt or two.

Not a big fan of additives.Like the oils that have it blended in it.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2013, 09:32 AM
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Richard,one more question;
How much money do you save over the life of an engine if you need to supplement your oil changes when using a flat tappet cam over a roller hydraulic? Never mind the power difference,idle quality and throttle response.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
Richard,one more question;
How much money do you save over the life of an engine if you need to supplement your oil changes when using a flat tappet cam over a roller hydraulic? Never mind the power difference,idle quality and throttle response.
Let's run the numbers.
We'll assume that this hot rodder changes oil each 3000 miles and includes a bottle of ZDDPlus with each change at a cost of $11.50 per 4 oz bottle and that the motor will last for 194, 217 miles before it needs a rebuild. Over the life of the motor, there will be 64 oil changes with a cost for chemicals of $736.00.

A hydraulic flat tappet cam and lifter kit will cost ~$150.00
A hydraulic roller tappet cam and lifter kit will cost ~$550.00, or $400.00 more than a flat tappet cam and lifter kit.

Conclusion: You can buy a flat tappet cam and lifters for $400.00 less than a roller tappet cam and lifters, but you will spend an additional $736.00 over the life of the motor, just to keep it alive. Net loss to the car owner for putting up with a fosdick cam: $336.00

I don't know what you guys pay for Brad Penn and other special oils that will do the job without additives, but I'm betting that you would see about the same differential of cost over an off-the-shelf oil that you can run in a roller tappet motor.

Gee, that was fun, thanks Vinnie.

Last edited by techinspector1; 10-03-2013 at 09:58 AM.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2013, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Let's run the numbers.
We'll assume that this hot rodder changes oil each 3000 miles and includes a bottle of ZDDPlus with each change at a cost of $11.50 per 4 oz bottle and that the motor will last for 194, 217 miles before it needs a rebuild. Over the life of the motor, there will be 64 oil changes with a cost for chemicals of $736.00.

A hydraulic flat tappet cam and lifter kit will cost ~$150.00
A hydraulic roller tappet cam and lifter kit will cost ~$550.00, or $400.00 more than a flat tappet cam and lifter kit.

Conclusion: You can buy a flat tappet cam and lifters for $400.00 less than a roller tappet cam and lifters, but you will spend an additional $736.00 over the life of the motor, just to keep it alive. Net loss to the car owner for putting up with a fosdick cam: $336.00

I don't know what you guys pay for Brad Penn and other special oils that will do the job without additives, but I'm betting that you would see about the same differential of cost over an off-the-shelf oil that you can run in a roller tappet motor.

Gee, that was fun, thanks Vinnie.
Ok, so I see flat tappet cost as not so bad, being that it took 30 years to get that many miles on my elcamino.lol I would one day like to modernize my drive train with an LS2 or 3 set up after two more kids are graduated from college and I will have more funds to spend. If I could get 70 to 80,000 miles from this build I would be very pleased.

by the way what does "fosdick" mean?
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2013, 11:11 AM
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by the way what does "fosdick" mean?
Fearless Fosdick was a character in the comic strip "Dick Tracy" by Chester Gould. Fosdick screwed up most of what he touched and was a failure, so anything that is screwed up is termed fosdick.
http://deniskitchen.com/Merchant2/me...e=bios.fosdick
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2013, 11:18 AM
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maybe another question Richard,Is there 100% guarantee that if I use the additive that the flat tappet cam won't fail?
I know a complete tear down is very expensive,maybe more costs than the original build
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