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Old 05-31-2009, 10:31 PM
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400 small block build opinions,suggestions

I found a 400 for a reasonable price, partially disassembled,and they lost interest(gas went up). Bores have light surface but are std and there is virtually no ridge. pending there is nothing drastically wrong with the block I will be building it. I will be building for low to midrange torque and fuel economy(15-17 & I'll be happy) It will be in a 1985 Chevrolet Silverado K10 700r4 with 3.08 gears and 30x9.50 tires

Bore the block (.020-.030 to clean up the bores)
Balance
I am leaning towards 5.7 I beam rods, which would be best standard sbc rods or the lt1 powdered metal rods, but am I going to run into cam and block clearance issues with the longer rods? Its not going to be abused or reved hard would I be better off to stay with the 5.565 rods?

Camshaft
I have been looking into a retrofit roller
http://competitionproducts.com/prodi...umber=CL110225
Howards, Retro-Fit Hyd. Roller Cam & Lifter Kit, Chev SB
Chev SB (Hydraulic Roller)
Lift: .450/.465
Adv. Duration: 262/272
Duration @ .050": 208/214
Lobe Sep.: 112
Great Daily Usage, Smooth Idle, Fuel Economy

or
http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/Ca...?csid=155&sb=1

If I should happen to go with a flat tappet it would probabally be an rv type grind.

Heads
I am leaning towards these Aluminum Vortecs from CGM Motorsports
http://www.cgmmotorsports.com/sbcalu...ortecrace.aspx
These should be a better choice than a patriot or gm vortec correct?

Eventually a Quadra Jet carb, but may run the 600 cfm Edelbrock for the time being

Roller tipped rocker arms

What compression should I shoot for for 87 octane 9-9.5?

What intake do you suggest?

Should work with standard sbc headers correct?

Electric cooling fan

Possibly am going to have the heads singh grooved

Thank you
Shane

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Old 05-31-2009, 11:03 PM
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While its commendable that the the head port flow numbers are not inflated, they are low for a as cast 200cc head and low for a as cast head of even smaller port volume. (like a vortec). look at the critical seat to .400" flow numbers. Ignore the peak lift numbers that you will never see with a .450" lift cam.

These are not comparable to a good GM or aftermarket vortec head or good 170cc +/-ish (port volume) street performance head.
This head will not make 500hp without porting.
My low buck home ported 305 heads flow more with less port volume and smaller 1.94" valves.
You get what you pay for. These heads are marketed under various brands.
Pro Comp etc etc.

Look at the Edelbrock E-Street or Performer RPM, Brodix IK0180 or 200 TFS 23 or RHS 180 or 906 pro torker vortec or AFR 180 for a benchmark.
Pay particular attention to the critial .400" flow numbers for a street motor.

For 87 octane build with 9:1 or less.
http://www.fbparts.com/gmp%20SBC_head.htm A link to help you gauge the relative flow numbers of the various GM vortecs. (the real deal)

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 05-31-2009 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 06-01-2009, 06:20 AM
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The Patriot Vortec heads are showing better flow #s

But I have heard a mixed bag of opinions on Patriot heads.
https://www.patriot-performance.com/...&cat=76&page=1
Also they say that either a normal smallblock intake or a vortec intake will work, Wont there be signifigant issues of port alignment. I wouldnt mind cleaning up the ports a little, Im trying to do this on somewhat of a budget($2000-2500)
I like the fact that the non GM heads are already set up for guide plates and higher lift, but If they are the best option....
Shane
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Old 06-01-2009, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevrolet4x4s
they say that either a normal smallblock intake or a vortec intake will work, Wont there be signifigant issues of port alignment.
If using an intake other than a Vortec-specific or a raised-port intake, there will be a significant intake port misalignment.

The Vortec intake ports are almost 1/4" higher- more than can safely be ground away in many cases w/o causing sealing issues.
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Old 06-01-2009, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
If using an intake other than a Vortec-specific or a raised-port intake, there will be a significant intake port misalignment.

The Vortec intake ports are almost 1/4" higher- more than can safely be ground away in many cases w/o causing sealing issues.
Thats what I was thinking,kinda of makes me wonder about ther rest of the heads if they make them so that an incorrect intake can be used

Shane
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevrolet4x4s
Thats what I was thinking,kinda of makes me wonder about ther rest of the heads if they make them so that an incorrect intake can be used
To be fair, there ARE "regular"-although "raised port"-type intakes- that will work on these heads.

Some of these raised-port intakes (Dart, etc.) are high-dollar pieces that a builder wouldn't want to have to replace if changing heads, if possible.

That said, such intakes largely wouldn't be used on these particular heads, anyway.

I think having dual-pattern intake bolt holes might have been done as much to be able to market them as being compatible with the "standard-type" intakes to "budget-minded" builders, than as a truly viable alternative to using the correct intake in the first place.

Also, there may be an angle to this that I'm not aware of.

FWIW, I wouldn't let just that be the basis of choosing (or not) their heads.

Look around to see what actual real-world experiences are with them, from the people who are using them if possible.
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Old 06-01-2009, 08:23 AM
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My advice would be to not look at heads at all until after the machining of your block and rotating assembly are done and you have the bill in your hands. Then you'll know what your actual budget is for heads. I would scrap doing a retro roller valve train if you're on a budget. Get a hyd flat tappet setup and spend more money on the heads. You generally dont need a roller setup if you're not revving over 6k.

For I-beams on a budget I would suggest Scat 6" rods. They are known to need the least amount of clearancing and balancing, if any, for a small cam. Compared to Eagle or 5.7" rods(popular budget choices).

Go with full roller rockers(1.6 ratio).

Lastly I agree 100% with F-Bird88's(Hi Rick!) suggestions. You should be able to make ~475lb-ft anywhere you want in the powerband with a good 180cc head. Just choose the cam that puts it where you want it.
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Old 06-02-2009, 08:12 PM
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Heads are a MUST Its got 305 heads(going by the castin mark) on it now. I can go over budget if need be but I'd rather not.
Shane

Last edited by Chevrolet4x4s; 06-02-2009 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 06-13-2009, 08:51 AM
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Block is out of the machine shop .030" over
http://www.hpwtx.com/ Has internaly balanced Eagle 400 cranks on sale for $115 , Ones on its way via a big brown truck
Shane
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Old 06-13-2009, 09:52 AM
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take that crank to a good machine shop to have it checked, it'll probably need work. I would stay away from 6" rods, no need to create oil issues for a truck engine. I would look at RHS or EQ for their 180cc heads, it'll be a good head with a decent price, those "aluminum vortecs" that you found are crap. There's also nothing spectacular about that cam you found, a hyd. flat tappet will do you just as well or better. I would look at running 1.6 rockers since you need to buy them anyway, its the same price and its almost always a good idea.

For an intake I'd look for a used RPM or equivalent, be leary of any low cost knock offs (like those heads you speced and that crank) as they require more work and money in the long run.
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Old 06-13-2009, 04:16 PM
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Just some food for thought, you mentioned a 700 R4, 3.08 gears and a 30" tire, here's three examples of a possible rear end change (assuming it's not a 4X4) 3.08 @ 70 mph = 1690 rpm....3.73 @ 70 mph = 2047 rpm....4.11 @ 70 mph = 2255 rpm.

Even though your engine will have plenty of torque a gear change with the 3.06 first gear of the 700 would be a lot of fun around town.....
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Old 06-13-2009, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
take that crank to a good machine shop to have it checked, it'll probably need work. I would stay away from 6" rods, no need to create oil issues for a truck engine. I would look at RHS or EQ for their 180cc heads, it'll be a good head with a decent price, those "aluminum vortecs" that you found are crap. There's also nothing spectacular about that cam you found, a hyd. flat tappet will do you just as well or better. I would look at running 1.6 rockers since you need to buy them anyway, its the same price and its almost always a good idea.

For an intake I'd look for a used RPM or equivalent, be leary of any low cost knock offs (like those heads you speced and that crank) as they require more work and money in the long run.
It will be going to the machine shop for a check and balancing. Went with Eagle per recomendation of machine shop,and my friend that's going to help with the assembly. 5.7 rods with arp bolts and will most likely use KB pistons
What would your reccommendations be for a cam,keep in mind that I am building for fuel economy and torque. I have heard that pro comp heads are now made in Austrailia and are of better quality than they were several years ago
Intake will either be a Weiand or Edelbrock

Quote:
Originally Posted by 327NUT
Just some food for thought, you mentioned a 700 R4, 3.08 gears and a 30" tire, here's three examples of a possible rear end change (assuming it's not a 4X4) 3.08 @ 70 mph = 1690 rpm....3.73 @ 70 mph = 2047 rpm....4.11 @ 70 mph = 2255 rpm.

Even though your engine will have plenty of torque a gear change with the 3.06 first gear of the 700 would be a lot of fun around town.....
4x4 Though it may get 3.73s or 3.42s down the road

Shane

Last edited by Chevrolet4x4s; 06-13-2009 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 06-13-2009, 10:19 PM
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I would recommend against the use of KB hypereutectic pistons , many people including myself have had them explode and ruin the engine. They have no tolerance for even the slightest hiccup -- bad gas, spark knock, higher ambient temps, slight carb momentary lean-out... Do a search here, you will see, they are not all that they are marketed to be. The KB forged are a nice piston however. Nice close-fitting forging.

Pro-Comp is chinese, just scam-marketed as Australian by the Australian gent who contracted the chinese to make them. Quality does appear to be improving, I've had no trouble with mine, but had I known they were chinese I probably wouldn't have bought them. Buy them bare and have your local shop finish them out to insure that you get good valvetrain pieces.

Last edited by ericnova72; 06-13-2009 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 06-13-2009, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
I would recommend against the use of KB hypereutectic pistons , many people including myself have had them explode and ruin the engine. They have no tolerance for even the slightest hiccup -- bad gas, spark knock, higher ambient temps, slight carb momentary lean-out... Do a search here, you will see, they are not all that they are marketed to be. The KB forged are a nice piston however. Nice close-fitting forging.

Pro-Comp is chinese, just scam-marketed as Australian by the Australian gent who contracted the chinese to make them. Quality does appear to be improving, I've had no trouble with mine, but had I known they were chinese I probably wouldn't have bought them. Buy them bare and have your local shop finish them out to insure that you get good valvetrain pieces.
What kind of end gap were you running on your rings?
Hmm,are yours the "vortecs" Would you happen to have the flow numbers?

Shane
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Old 06-13-2009, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevrolet4x4s
What kind of end gap were you running on your rings?
Hmm,are yours the "vortecs" Would you happen to have the flow numbers?

Shane
KB's recommended gap on the first set, I was stupid enough to try them again, .004 BIGGER than their recommendation on the second set even though there was no sign of ring-butting with the first set. Both sets broke the same way, right out of the bottom corner of the intake valve pocket. Checking showed that the pistons are only about .060" thick at this spot. Check recent posts by member here BIGWISEXY, he has posted pics that will show the same damage to his engine just last week.

Used all the same parts except the block(and junk KB's, of course!) with forged TRW pistons and it then stayed together for 12 years of street/strip (11 second passes) driving. You couldn't GIVE me a TRUCK LOAD of KB hypers, I'd feel like a crook even GIVING them to someone who wanted to use them. They are false economy.

My ProComps were not the Vortec, just raised port with standard pattern. I didn't get them flowed stock, you could tell that they had some trouble spots as far as flow was concerned (lips and restricted points) just by looking, it was obvious just below the seats and around the guide bosses and just in from the intake face. I consider myself a decent head porter. and get some of my work flow checked from time to time. These went just over 280 In/ 205 Ex w/2.055" intake valve checking them after the work. If you know a little they were pretty easy, they have copied somebody's design and then restricted the port roof in from the intake face enough to avoid a patent infringement. I think almost anyone with a steady hand could get 265 In/ 190+ Ex. I bought them bare and had them machined to the 2.055 valve.
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