403 olds again - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2012, 08:24 PM
sbchevfreak's Avatar
Licenced Automotive Technician
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Land of big Easter eggs, Alberta
Age: 34
Posts: 1,604
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 9
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Use the cam gear to turn the cam so the dots are closest to each other (cam gear at 6 o'clock, crank gear at 12 o'clock)- this makes aligning the dots easier/less chance of an error.

With the timing set in this position (cam gear at 6 o'clock, crank gear at 12 o'clock), cylinder #6 will be on compression. You can set the distributor in with the timing gears in this position if you point the rotor towards #6 distributor cap terminal to set the ignition timing.

Or, rotate the crank one revolution (timing marks are now at 12 o'clock for the cam AND crank gear), then point the rotor towards #1 distributor cap terminal to set the ignition timing.

The bold/underlined areas are the simplest way to do this. I have done it like this for years, w/o any hassels, or comebacks.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2012, 09:37 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
The point is either way accomplishes the exact same thing. One way requires an extra turn of the crank, the other way doesn't. Most guys are going to turn the engine over during the course of setting the valves anyway, so it's largely a moot point...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2012, 05:49 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Virginia
Posts: 705
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 75 Times in 75 Posts
Another misconception. In truth, it's easier to get a "stock" timing set "lined up" using a straight-edge through the bolt hole "centers", across the "dots" while at 12 o'clock. This reduces the potential for 'missing' the timing by adding a longer distance to check that the dots are truly "lined up". Of course, degreeing the cam is the REAL way to do it "right". Gimme a break guys, I've only done this a few thousand times... (:-

Jim
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2012, 06:10 AM
cool rockin daddy's Avatar
1.21 giga-watts???!!!!
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: wherever cool cars are
Posts: 1,535
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. P-Body
Another misconception. In truth, it's easier to get a "stock" timing set "lined up" using a straight-edge through the bolt hole "centers", across the "dots" while at 12 o'clock. This reduces the potential for 'missing' the timing by adding a longer distance to check that the dots are truly "lined up". Of course, degreeing the cam is the REAL way to do it "right". Gimme a break guys, I've only done this a few thousand times... (:-

Jim
Yeah, and so what does that prove? You're picking a fight on here with two of the most respected members on this board. And they have basically proved that the six to twelve and the twelve and twelve are exactly the same. So, noob, what exactly is your point? Let me just tell you this: Know-it-alls with attitudes find themselves on people's ignore list really quick around here. If indeed you have done this "thousands" of times, then lose the attitude and share your knowledge in a courteous manner. Have a nice day.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2012, 07:30 AM
LATECH's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 

Last journal entry: Motor - vator
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 5,247
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 215
Thanked 261 Times in 243 Posts
I install gear sets as the service manual says. 6 o clock 12 o clock whatever.
Degreeing a cam is a great Idea, but not too profitable or logical for a flat rate guy whos just repairing a daily driver for a customer.Granted cam timing was fudged on 70s cars as the thinking was retarded timing would help meet EPA standards, Thank god those days are behind us. If no one was checking by degreeing them, who would have been the wiser?


No one wrong here, just putting a line in the sand. No one needs to get there back up or puff the chest out, so lets just cool out ,have fun , and help someone out. Isnt that why we are here anyway?
__________________
Fact is stranger than Fiction
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2012, 07:39 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
While I disagree w/the idea that aligning both the marks at 12 o'clock and sighting across the cam gear w/a straightedge is any better than the usually recommended way of doing it- especially on an assembled engine sitting between the fenders of the vehicle (like the OPís situation if I understand it correctly), to each their own. If it works for YOU, that's what matters. But it is not a procedure I will be recommending for the simple reason that it introduces more chance for error than it prevents- IN MY OPINION.

But more importantly IMO is regardless of the method of aligning the marks- putting them at 12 and 12 and straight edging, or some other non-traditional way of aligning the marks, or doing it the normal way- I recommend that the engine be turned a couple revolutions after aligning the gears to see that the alignment of the dots on the gears is correct.

This can be easily done either just to check the gear alignment or during the course of setting the valves- all it takes is one close look and you know if itís right or not after turning the engine over. This is Timing Set 101 stuff!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2012, 07:48 AM
LATECH's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 

Last journal entry: Motor - vator
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 5,247
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 215
Thanked 261 Times in 243 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I recommend that the engine be turned a couple revolutions after aligning the gears to see that the alignment of the dots on the gears is correct.

This can be easily done either just to check the gear alignment or during the course of setting the valves- all it takes is one close look and you know if itís right or not after turning the engine over. This is Timing Set 101 stuff!

That is what I do as the norm. I also like another tech to look . Another set of eyes does two things. It gives a good second check for verification, and helps dispell any question later on if a running problem arises with the engine.
I allways have a second tech look at marks on timing belt driven engines, they can be pretty elusive at times, with the confines body/framework making it difficult to see the marks clearly or squarely.
At any rate sometimes it is best to go get a cup of coffee, and come back in 5 minutes, turn the engine over look again, giving the eyes a break. Sometimes thats all it takes to see it clearly.
__________________
Fact is stranger than Fiction
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2012, 04:48 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Makes sense to me... like trying to edit your own writing- sometimes a error will be all but invisible.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2012, 07:17 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Virginia
Posts: 705
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 75 Times in 75 Posts
I'm not "picking a fight" with ANYONE, "Daddy"... and I'm hardly a "noob". I am a 35-year ASE Master engine builder. The posts I make, when qualified as an "opinion" are just that. If not qualified as such, you can "bet" on it. The factory service manuals for most engines indicate 12/12, including Oldsmobile.

It has been my experience, it's EASIER to "get it wrong" when the dots are closer together than when separated. "Angle of deflection" comes into "play".

As stated earlier, the "right" way to do it is to "degree" the cam. NOT an opinion.

I have no doubt cobalt327 knows what he's talking about. It is not my intent to "show him up" or claim him "wrong". It IS my intent, to explain how things are done in the "engine building world". Many, many procedures we use are either ommitted or done in the wrong "order", when reading many posts. This is a particular area of expertise, outside the "scope" of a line tech (I was one of those when a younger man, "heavy line", "front-end and brakes", GM and Ford dealers). I just offer information. No ego involved here.

PAX

Jim
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2012, 09:58 AM
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Wheelbase database Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,557
Wiki Edits: 1

Thanks: 6
Thanked 153 Times in 140 Posts
I think we need to widen this discussion to include whether or not the toilet paper should come off the top of the roll or the bottom...

Seriously people, it DOES NOT MATTER. Installation of a timing set isn't infinitely variable. The chain only goes on the gear teeth in discrete positions. Doesn't matter if the dots are at 6:12 or at 12:12; I've never had a problem telling if the gears were lined up or one tooth off. We've already spent way more time arguing about it than it takes to actually do it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2012, 11:18 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
I do tend to listen to what the factory says in their manuals. I mean the factory manuals. If Olds or whoever says to do it that way, I'd give it some thought at the very least. However, here I once used that exact same 'argument', i.e. "that's what the factory manual says" and was told "you cannot rely on what's in a factory manual to always be right". So d if you do, d if you don't.

In any event, I didn't take anyone's opinions as a slight to me. The options are laid out nicely, now it's up to the installer as to how to proceed.

Moving on...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
403 olds mafiacustomz Engine 12 01-02-2012 01:55 AM
403 olds justinsch25 Engine 3 10-01-2009 08:58 PM
79 T/A w/Olds 403 Rough-Rider Engine 6 03-25-2007 11:22 PM
71' 350 #7 olds heads on 79' 403 olds Rough-Rider Engine 5 01-22-2007 04:04 PM
olds 403? Meka Engine 15 09-11-2005 01:48 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.