416 or Vortec? - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-07-2007, 08:31 PM
Blazin72's Avatar
You got a leaky spark tube...
 
Last wiki edit: Rearend removal
Last journal entry: General Lee
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Union, WA
Age: 32
Posts: 2,868
Wiki Edits: 19

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
416 or Vortec?

I pulled a valve cover off the 305 in my boat today to see which heads it had. They're 416 castings, some on here have said those heads do have some potential. I'm not looking for anything major, maybe a 20-30hp increase. I'm thinking about a set of Vortec heads and a small cam to get me where I want to be. Are the Vortec heads a worthwhile upgrade over the 416s?

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-07-2007, 09:34 PM
Blazin72's Avatar
You got a leaky spark tube...
 
Last wiki edit: Rearend removal
Last journal entry: General Lee
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Union, WA
Age: 32
Posts: 2,868
Wiki Edits: 19

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanks for the info. How about marine intakes? I know there are aluminum intakes that have copper plating in the water crossover to reduce corrosion. I'm looking to find one of these as well. I wouldn't worry too much about it except that I do plan on running it in salt water this summer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-07-2007, 10:20 PM
GM Tech
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan
Age: 40
Posts: 58
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The 416 heads have smaller combustion chambers than standard Vortec heads, so a head swap would reduce your compression ratio somewhat. I believe the Vortecs are 64cc and the 416 are 58cc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-07-2007, 10:22 PM
Blazin72's Avatar
You got a leaky spark tube...
 
Last wiki edit: Rearend removal
Last journal entry: General Lee
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Union, WA
Age: 32
Posts: 2,868
Wiki Edits: 19

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Yes, they would be milled to bring the chambers as close to 58cc as possible. How thick is the deck surface on the Vortecs? Does anybody know how much would have to be removed?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2007, 08:08 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Baroda, MI
Posts: 210
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Be careful on the highrise cast iron intake F-Bird is talking about - they are great manifolds for high rpm's and using in circle track where cast iron is dictated, BUT - everything I've read says you are losing torque with those under 4500rpms and that they shine in 4500+ applications. That might be a little high for a boat?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2007, 03:33 PM
curtis73's Avatar
Hates: Liver. Loves: Diesel
 
Last wiki edit: How to find cheap parts
Last journal entry: Found an LQ9 today
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Carlisle, PA
Age: 41
Posts: 5,382
Wiki Edits: 16

Thanks: 27
Thanked 35 Times in 28 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazin72
Yes, they would be milled to bring the chambers as close to 58cc as possible. How thick is the deck surface on the Vortecs? Does anybody know how much would have to be removed?
Don't

Vortecs have thin decks. They are designed well and don't typically crack or warp, but the amount you'd have to mill to get 58cc would certainly not be satisfactory.

There are 305 Vortec heads as well... Probably worth 20 hp alone.

As far as the cooling goes, you could go to closed cooling, or use a vortec iron marine intake. Its tough to find bronze-lined aluminum intakes, but they're out there. On Ebay look for a seller by the name of michiganmotors, they have them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2007, 04:34 PM
Hippie's Avatar
Analog man in a digital world.
 

Last journal entry: HEI comparison.
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 2,253
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
That iron hi rise dual plane manifold is a direct copy of the old 69 70 Z28 LT1 manifold and Holley 300-36 dual plane with full divided plenum.

...................


There is nothing wrong with the low end output of this manifold.

I'll second that, the old Z/28 intake is one of the best all around street manifolds ever made. It has excellent torque characteristics from an idle up. Where you lose bottom end is when people get grinder happy and think they're making it better by removing the plenum divider.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2007, 05:24 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Baroda, MI
Posts: 210
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I mis-spoke stating torque when I was thinking throttle response. Here is the link to my information:

http://www.castheads.com/marine_high_rise.php
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2007, 12:13 PM
runn141's Avatar
SB S10
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,258
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 21
Thanked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
If you want a head that you can bolt on and go faster than the vortecs will certainly do that for ya. They will need some performance valve train mods and machining to get them ready for performance use.

Your 416 castings have good performance potential (easy 30+ hp) but will need full porting and larger 1.94" valves and some mods also. The porting required takes time but is worth the result.
Based on airflow alone you can fully port a 416 head w/1.94" valves to equal and/or exceed vortec head flow. The vortec heads have a superior combustion chamber thou.
They are ultimately a better head.

So you have two good ways to get the power you are after.
a moderate marine friendly cam swap and compression ratio increase will help also.

The fully ported/preped 416 head route is a little cheaper buy only if you do all the porting yourself then get a machinist to finish them. ( valve job etc.) You can do some other stuff to like drill and pin the rocker studs.
i done the same thing to a set of 416s cut to 1.94s and they gave me no more power than the set of 882s ported and polished. i cant see them being as good or better than a vortec, vortec looks to have a better chamber design.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2007, 12:22 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Baroda, MI
Posts: 210
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
This manifold has no lack of throttle response.
Don't know where the author got that idea.
Take it however you want - I don't have any reason to doubt Brezinski.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2007, 12:24 PM
Hippie's Avatar
Analog man in a digital world.
 

Last journal entry: HEI comparison.
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 2,253
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Low end torque IS throttle response and they were comparing it to a stock cast iron small block intake. Almost every carburetor intake manifold on the planet gives up some throttle response and torque to the standard iron SBC intakes at low RPM. The few that don't are all done by 4500 too. I know plenty of people that ran the Z/28 high rise on everything from a stock 283 to a built 406 and it worked very well. If ever there was a true "one size fits all" intake for the SBC this was it. Other intakes do better in other areas but this one works well from idle to 6500. The only ones that come close are either shameless copies or very, very similar and I think we all know which ones I'm talking about..........
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2007, 12:49 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Baroda, MI
Posts: 210
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hippie - I understand what you are saying about the high rise intakes - they are good intakes, I ran one on a circle track car all of last year. What I'm getting at is you are going for a "one size fits all" intake and I am looking at it for a specific application. If you are running a 305 with stock 416 heads in a boat turning 2000-4000rpms I don't think the intake is the bottle neck. In that respect you are not wisely spending money replacing a stock intake with the marine one. Now if the boat is spinning 5000rpm all day and has some decent flowing heads I agree - the high rise will help you out, but until that happens just stick with the intake you have.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2007, 03:12 PM
runn141's Avatar
SB S10
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,258
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 21
Thanked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
I did not say they were "as good" or "better" I said you can get the 30hp gain you are looking for by using either head.
Just installing 1.94" valves in the 416 heads will not do it.
Thats not a apples to apples comparision.
They need full porting. Once fully ported (not a little playing with a dremel) These fully ported big valve heads flow quite well (243cfm) (mid 230's more typical). That is more than what a vortec head flows in stock form. (228cfm)
The ported 305 head route is somewhat cheaper depending on how resourcefull you are. But you have to do the dirty work.
The main benefit of and desireability of the 416's over a 882 head is the combustion chamber size. Its smaller to start with making it easier and cheaper to end up with a finished head that works well. For a low budget build up the 416 heads are a better choice to start with than the 882's are. It's not what you start with, its what you end up with that counts. I've found that you can finish the 416's to 52cc to 65cc making them a good budget performance head for a lot of typical applications. They are certainly readially available for cheap. I have not come across a cracked or unusable casting yet.
I've had vortecs, 882's and ported 305 heads on the same motor in the same car. Can tell ya, the vortecs are real nice, the ported 305 heads (mine anyways) are very close in performance and the 882's are not,,,

Yes, the vortecs have a much better, more advanced combustion chamber. No discounting that.
i misunderstood you, i thought you said you bolt them on and go faster than the vortecs. the 882s i was talking about were ported also,and for the record i dont use a dremel on my heads
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2007, 08:30 PM
Blazin72's Avatar
You got a leaky spark tube...
 
Last wiki edit: Rearend removal
Last journal entry: General Lee
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Union, WA
Age: 32
Posts: 2,868
Wiki Edits: 19

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
The boat will do about 45 mph with the outdrive trimmed properly and turning 4500 rpm. This is using a 15" dia x 16" pitch four bladed prop. The RPM rating for this engine is 4200-4800 so it's operating right where it's supposed to. I'd like more hole shot without slowing the boat down on the top end, which is what a lower pitch prop is going to do. I'd like to go back to the 17" pitch prop, it was reaching 47 with that one but had even less off the line.

What about the S/R 305 heads? Are they worth much, or they pretty much just stock replacements?

Last edited by Blazin72; 04-10-2007 at 08:42 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2007, 09:01 PM
Blazin72's Avatar
You got a leaky spark tube...
 
Last wiki edit: Rearend removal
Last journal entry: General Lee
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Union, WA
Age: 32
Posts: 2,868
Wiki Edits: 19

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
I just found this. http://www.michiganmotorz.com/Marine...replacement%29 I think I may just wait until I sell the Malibu and buy this engine and maybe install a slightly better cam. Since the 305 is still fairly new and runs fairly well I should still be able to get a decent price for it too. It's already rated at 260hp and 350lb-ft of torque at 3500 rpm. Even with an upgraded 305 making close to that much power it still isnt going to put out as much torque as the 305.

What differentiates this engine from the Goodwrench 260hp replacement automotive engine?

Last edited by Blazin72; 04-10-2007 at 09:13 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AFR or Vortec heads? Cam? rodent Engine 18 06-08-2010 04:50 PM
5.7 Vortec Heads Mustangsaly Engine 4 12-09-2005 08:48 PM
5.7 Vortec Mustangsaly Engine 6 12-07-2005 02:18 PM
NEW GMPP VORTEC heads !! terror385 Engine 1 07-11-2004 10:48 AM
vortec 350 fiscus Engine 5 03-31-2004 03:59 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.