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Old 02-15-2011, 07:04 PM
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428 Pontiac

Is the 428 Pontiac a red-haired stepchild?

I have a 400 and I am considering a 60 overbore using Ross Pistons + light weight piston pins.

I already have a set of Nickle-chrom-moly H-beam rods of 400 length for the 3.75 stroke, so I am not really interested in using stock 455 pistons even tho the bore is the same (I believe). With the 400 rods, the 455 pistons would sit down too deeply into the hole.

Would it be correct to think that the 428 pistons are going to be heavier than the 455?

Would the few thousandths difference in rod length between the 400 rods & the 455 rods save any measurable weight?

Why don't more piston companies, or car catalog companies have the weights published for their stuff to help a consumer make a decision?

Last question:

My rods have ARP bolts instead of studs, which is good. I have heard that I should replace the main cap bolts with studs. Something here I am not familiar with. Can someone explain please? (Bolts = GOOD...Bolts = BAD). What about head studs instead of head bolts?

Thanks.

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Old 02-15-2011, 07:34 PM
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All Pontiac rods, with the exception of the RAV, are the same length, 6.625". The difference between a 400 and a 428 is the stroke only. The crank for a factory 428 has the larger 3.25" vs 3.00" main bearings, but the aftermarket stroker cranks have the 3.00" mains. For a strong light weight piston, I would use Ross.

I use ARP studs because there is no frictional stress on the threads in the block as you would have with bolts.

Bill
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Old 02-16-2011, 05:33 AM
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FYI, when done right, the Pontiac 428 is a BEAR of an engine...
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Old 02-16-2011, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DENCOUCH
Is the 428 Pontiac a red-haired stepchild?

I have a 400 and I am considering a 60 overbore using Ross Pistons + light weight piston pins.

I already have a set of Nickle-chrom-moly H-beam rods of 400 length for the 3.75 stroke, so I am not really interested in using stock 455 pistons even tho the bore is the same (I believe). With the 400 rods, the 455 pistons would sit down too deeply into the hole.

Would it be correct to think that the 428 pistons are going to be heavier than the 455?

Would the few thousandths difference in rod length between the 400 rods & the 455 rods save any measurable weight?

Why don't more piston companies, or car catalog companies have the weights published for their stuff to help a consumer make a decision?

Last question:

My rods have ARP bolts instead of studs, which is good. I have heard that I should replace the main cap bolts with studs. Something here I am not familiar with. Can someone explain please? (Bolts = GOOD...Bolts = BAD). What about head studs instead of head bolts?

Thanks.
Butler has a crank with 3 inch journals(main) and 4 inch stroke. Using that and 428 pistons you will end up with a 428.
You can also get a 4.25 inch stroke crank and 455 std pistons and end up with a 455, which is what a lot of guys semmto be doing.
The piston pin height changes when you change the stroke, the poncho rods welll.... what creech said.
Study the differences in the pistons both bore and pin height(compression height and you will get the picture.
I bored a 389 to 4.120 and that makes it a 400, if I put in 428 pistons and the 4 inch stroke crank I too can end up at 428, but being I started with a 389 I could stroke it to 455 but that would be the limit. You can push a 400 to 462 I think. Butler will show you check it out.

Butlerperformance.com
The 400 and 428 have the same stock bore size is what am trying to say, the cranks throw is 4. inches on the 428 as the 400 is 3.75. That is why the pin height is different on the 428 pistons
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Old 02-16-2011, 05:36 PM
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Also , it sounds like your rods are overkill for a street motor, but then if you are going to go drag racing then the stock crank would not be enough.
I am having my stock rods resized and fitted with arp bolts. I am reusing all the rest of the fasteners that are original.I am building a pump gas street motor, daily driver, I dont plan on taking it to the strip, but what the hay, I just might for the heck of it.
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Old 02-16-2011, 05:48 PM
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Years ago Car Craft listed a 1969 428 Grand Prix in the top ten fastest car list. They ran low 14's with an auto. and the air on. Pontiac engine are really cool.
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Old 02-17-2011, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latech
You can also get a 4.25 inch stroke crank and 455 std pistons and end up with a 455, which is what a lot of guys semmto be doing.
latech, I was reading over this thread and saw this minor bit of mis-information, that you posted. A stock bore 455 (4.151") and a 4.25" stroke would end up at 460.1 cubic inches. Butler, as well as several other Pontiac venders, do list a 4.21" stroke crank to make a 455.

Bill
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WDCreech
latech, I was reading over this thread and saw this minor bit of mis-information, that you posted. A stock bore 455 (4.151") and a 4.25" stroke would end up at 460.1 cubic inches. Butler, as well as several other Pontiac venders, do list a 4.21" stroke crank to make a 455.

Bill
Whoops you are right. Gosh I better slow down thinkin and speed up on the typin.That could be a real trouble maker if you are trying to get quench down pat. Thanks bill.
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Old 02-17-2011, 06:00 PM
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Not to worry

Quote:
Originally Posted by latech
Whoops you are right. Gosh I better slow down thinkin and speed up on the typin.That could be a real trouble maker if you are trying to get quench down pat. Thanks bill.
Not to worry about that... my line of reasoning is that a 400 is a bored out 389... 11 cubic inches difference. The area under a circle increases with the diameter, so I thought the next size up from a 400 with a simple bore job was a 428...

I ran the numbers through a calculator & got a displacement of 411, stock bore 400 with 60 over pistons.

Any way that you slice it, I am guessing that this would still be referred to as a 400, no?

I mean, is there really any such thing as a 355 sbc, or is it a case of excessive pride that we get this tossed around from time to time.
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Old 02-17-2011, 06:30 PM
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well some of it is bragging rights, but justly executed. when you do the math and it winds up at 410 cubic inches it is a 410, even though it started off as a 400.I personally would refer to it as a 400. most people who are cars guys would know , but the general public...not so much.
I have a 1964 Lemans, I tell most people I have a 1964 GTO. If I tell them I have a Lemans they dont know really what it is, at least If I sai I have a GTO they at least think they know
Keep us posted. I am allways interested in hearing about a pontiac.
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Old 02-17-2011, 06:43 PM
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A 400 is kinda a 389 punched , but A 389 has to be bored .0575 to get to a 400 bore of 4.120. as the 389 bore is 4.0625
That doent leave much more room to bore a 389.I could probably safley go another .010 if I had to.
dont know if you know, but the 389 pistons are also cut with valve reliefs for heads with a 22 degree angle valve placement, the 400 pistons are cut with reliefs for the later 14 degree valve angle heads, so the 1965 heads from the 389 wont work with the 400 pitons HOWEVER for the sake of interchangeability speed pro ( I believe) makes a piston with dual valve reliefs so you can run either style of heads.They didnt impress me too much as the problem all those valve reliefs create 12 CCs of extra volume in the chamber.I was also concerned that all that may create a less than desirable environment for the swirl I am trying to create in the chamber with the quench I am setting into the build.
That is why I went with 400 pistons and later heads. The early heads are closed chambered and are to small CC wise to get the right amount for my build. A lot of guys I asked said that they had never cut closed chambered heads far enough to get the chamber size to 80 CC s or more and some said they doubted there was enough material in any decent spot to mill them to do so. Hence the move to later heads.
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Old 02-17-2011, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DENCOUCH
Not to worry about that... my line of reasoning is that a 400 is a bored out 389... 11 cubic inches difference. The area under a circle increases with the diameter, so I thought the next size up from a 400 with a simple bore job was a 428...

I ran the numbers through a calculator & got a displacement of 411, stock bore 400 with 60 over pistons.

Any way that you slice it, I am guessing that this would still be referred to as a 400, no?

I mean, is there really any such thing as a 355 sbc, or is it a case of excessive pride that we get this tossed around from time to time.
I would avoid boring a block .060" without, at least, a sonic check. There could be thin areas as well as thick areas, do to possible core shift, when the block was cast. There is a better way to increase the engine size, without boring. Ken "Ace" Brewer has cast rotating assemblies for a very reasonable price. http://www.pacificperformanceracing....-rotating.html

A 355 sbc is a .030" over 350. A .030" over Pontiac 400 would be a 406, with a stock 3.75" stroke, 428 with a 4.00" stroke, a 455 with a 4.21" stroke, and 460 with a 4.25" stroke.

Bill

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Old 02-17-2011, 08:17 PM
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Hey guy's- since I referenced the 69 GP with 428 I thought I'd share this guys website. Pretty cool cars.

http://www.can-of-whoopass.com/index.php?pageID=home
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Old 02-17-2011, 08:56 PM
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The 428 engine wasn't necessarily a "red-haired stepchild", but it was produced for less time (3 years) compared to the 326 (4 years, although in '63 the '326' was really a 336), 350 (10 years), 389 (8 years), 400 (13 years), 421 (6 years) and 455 (7 years).

Shorter production runs were made during the one-year-only 1955-'58 production engine runs, and there were two Trans Am racing engines (303 and 366) made in very limited numbers in '69-'70, respectively. I won't bother w/the 265/301 offshoots.

The 428 can be said to be a bored out 421, by 0.02625". The 428 also shared its bore w/the 400, shared its stroke w/the 421 and shared its crank journal sizes w/both the 421 and 455.

400- 1967-'79 4.120" bore x 3.75" stroke, 3.00" main 2.25" rod.
421- 1961-'66 4.09375" (4-3/32") bore x 4.00" stroke, 3.25" main 2.25" rod.
428- 1967-'69 4.120" bore x 4.00" stroke, 3.25" main 2.25" rod.
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:04 AM
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There is also an aftermarket 4.5" crank with 3" mains out there. With a 4.181 bore it makes a 494. That is a .060 over 400 block. What you call it is up to you really, I tend to tell people my 467 is a 301 or a 350. Most people cant tell the difference anyway, and even Creech would have to do some looking to know if its a 350, 400, or 455 block. If you know Pontiac you will know right off it isnt a 301.

In the big scheme of things the only real performance difference between 400, 428, and 455 is how much torque it makes, and at what RPM. It depends on what you want to do with it more than anything. I like 428s too, been wanting a 4" crank for a while now.
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