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Old 09-14-2008, 02:43 AM
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429/460 Questions

Got a 429/460 BB and D0VE-C heads. I'm pretty sure it's original with 4.362 bore and 3.850 stroke. Planning on putting it into my 1974 Mercury Montego MX Brougham for some highway cruising and fun. It's going to be replacing the 351W that's in it right now. Don't have any plans for that one yet.

Anyone know how high these blocks can generaly be overbored? .060 a possibility? Any suggestions on stroke? For budget reasons I'd like to keep the crankshaft that's in it if it's usuable, though the higher 4.300 and 4.500 strokes have my eye.

Going to toss the huge dish pistons that I got with it, been looking around and haven't seen a large selection of domed pistons for this application, and I'm afraid to see how much customs ones are.

Also considering build up for E85 fuel. If I did do this, what materials am I going to have to watch out for? What would be the best set up to utilize the higher octane? Will cold starts be a problem?


Think that's all I got for now. If I'm missing any info let me know!
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Old 09-14-2008, 03:45 AM
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Don't toss the dished pistons yet. Those D0VE-C heads are somewhere between 72 and 76 cc's and you'll need dished pistons, not flat top or domed to arrive at a pump gas friendly static compression ratio. I don't remember what the piston crown configuration is with the dished pistons, but you'll also need a nice flat area on the crown to mate up with the flat area on the underside of the head in order to "squish" the mixture toward the spark plug side of the chamber with the piston coming up to TDC on compression.

Yes, the motor can take a 0.060" overbore, but don't get carried away with the boring bar either. If it will clean up at 0.030", that would be a better way to go, more cylinder wall thickness. You're starting with 460 cubic inches, not 351. Be realistic.

I also looked around for pistons for you and the pickins are slim if you want to build a reasonable compression ratio street motor and have a flat surface on the piston crown for squish. You want to shoot for a piston crown to head figure of around 0.045" to 0.055" with this bigger bore motor. The larger radius of the piston means the edge of the piston has more movement when the piston rocks in the bore on the wrist pin axis and more chance to kiss the head than the piston in a smaller bore motor, so you open up the squish a little to account for this.

You said "highway cruising and fun". That would mean a static compression ratio of somewhere between 9.0:1 and 9.5:1 to me and that's what I'd shoot for if I were doing it. That way, you can keep the cam short for good low rpm and mid-range torque and fuel economy. (yeah, like 460 and fuel economy belong in the same sentence )

I would begin by cc'ing the chambers (you don't know how many times the heads have been surfaced in the last 35 years) and cc'ing the piston crowns to find out the volume there. Also, check for a nice flat area on the piston crown. Chances are there is only a narrow ring around the crown and that ain't gonna help with the squish much.

Just do some investigation and check back to let us know what you have found out.

Speed-O-Motive has an affordable 533 stroker kit by the way...
http://www.speedomotive.com/ps-122-1...roker-kit.aspx
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Old 09-14-2008, 11:53 AM
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They make pistons up to a .080 overbore on a 460 but I would be kind of leery about using them. What even makes it worse is most of the .080 overbore pistons are for 500+ cubic inch stroker engines. A flat top piston with D0VE heads is going to put your compression into the high 10's low 11's. I wouldn't even want to think what domed pistons would do. Speed pro made a flat top piston for the 460 and with 93cc heads they rated it in the lower 9's in compression. You would have to shelve the D0VE heads and find some D3VE heads with the larger 93cc chambers to get a street friendly compression ratio. As for D3VE heads, they are about the most common head out there, easy to find.
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Old 09-14-2008, 10:31 PM
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If I do run it on e85, it should be fine with 10.5:1 or 11:1 shouldn't it? Don't have much experiance with higher compression rates, would something this high just be too undrivable?

Also, not sure how much difference there is between this and the 351W that's in it, think stiffer springs would be needed?
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Old 09-15-2008, 01:22 AM
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Well, I'll admit I had to do some reading. It appears that there are some fellows currently running 13.5:1 c.r. on E85 and others who claim that the motor will operate without detonation up to 15.0:1 or even more. The kicker is the cylinder pressure.

If you read Crane Cams recommendations for pump gasoline, they recommend a maximum cranking cylinder pressure of about 160 psi. With E85, you would be able to operate at a much higher cylinder pressure (one fellow admitted to 225 psi with E85 and no detonation) with a shorter cam (earlier intake valve closing point) than would be tolerable with gasoline. The shorter cam would allow efficient operation in the lower to mid rpm ranges.

E85 runs at a 9.8:1 air/fuel ratio, so it will require an additional 30% volume of E85 over gasoline to make the same power. (the math on this doesn't work out for me, I'm just passing on what I've read).

I do know from years of reading that methanol burns best at 6.0:1 and straight ethanol burns best at 9.0:1, so there may be some validity to the E85 at 9.8:1, with the stoichiometric of gasoline at 14.7:1. I can see where adding 15% gasoline to ethanol could raise the stoichiometric to 9.8:1.

Keith Black makes a hyper piston for the 460 in a flat-top design that would work out to 11.7:1 with your heads and also a domed piston that would yield 13.75:1 c.r. It would be interesting to call up your favorite cam grinder and ask for a cam for each one of these c.r.'s that would make 225 psi cranking pressure, just to know where the intake valve would close and what the operating range of the cams would be.

Stiffer springs can be addressed by these folks. They can supply any spring for any car under any conditions.....
http://www.eatonsprings.com/

Last edited by techinspector1; 09-15-2008 at 01:38 AM.
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Old 09-15-2008, 03:25 AM
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Ah, I remember Eaton's been recommended to me before.

Any ideas on what a reasonable expectation of power would be?
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Old 09-26-2008, 01:33 PM
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AFter talking with COMP cams they recommend this:

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...4&autoview=sku

which is actually the cam I had been considering. With a setup I'm looking at right now that'll put the most torque at about 4000 rpm i think, someone have a good dyno program and want to run some numbers for me?
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Old 10-04-2008, 02:14 AM
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COMP really didn't seem to understand what I was saying about the higher pressure.

Lunati said #61602 would get me close to 225 at 11.7 CR, and #61604 for 13.7, but recommended #61601LK with a shorter duration for the build.

The recommended one opens exhaust 44.5 bbdc and closes -6.5 atdc. Intake opens -1.5 btdc and closes 34.5 abdc

Last edited by Alaskan Assassin; 10-04-2008 at 03:03 AM.
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