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Old 06-19-2009, 09:07 PM
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434 CI Setup question for max power..

Hi,

I was sold my 468 CI BBC,

Right now, I want to come back to small block chevy......

I want to buy from Dyno-Flo a 434 SHP dart Block...but I want to make me a setup with the more HP possible...I do mostly Street..but I want to have a little monster on the track...

with my 468 CI on 175 hp nitrous on full 74 nova without roll bar and only fiberglass hood, I went 10.26 at 133 mph on quarter miles.

TH350, 4.10 gear, 30 inch hoosier slick 30 X 12.5 X 15 With B&M holeshot 3500 rpm stall.....

For this setup I already have

Electric water pump, complete mallory nitrous ignition system (coil, distributor 6 nitrous box)....comp cams Full roller gold rockers 7/16 (1.630 spring)


There is my problem...I allot of choice for the setup..I need your help for the best power on the street and the track...

What kind of head will be best :
Dart pro one 230cc
Dart pro one 227cc CNC ported
AFR???

For the headers....Will I have to buy 2 inch primary headers or 1 7/8 will be better (3.5 connector at the base)

For the intake...Will I have to buy Dart intake.....

And the final last choice and the most important....What Mechanical Roller camshaft I have to buy......

I want to maximize horspower....you help will be really appreciate...

If possible, want to keep my 3500 stall...but thats not a problem..

I still have my complete Edelbrock nitrous system (adjustable from 100 to 250 hp...)...

ahhh forgot to tell.....I still have my 950 Holley HP carburetor....Will it be alright on my 434...

I want to tank you everybody will help me especially guy that run 434 on dyno..before an tried setup...

Stephane

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Old 06-19-2009, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratoflic
Hi,

I was sold my 468 CI BBC,

Right now, I want to come back to small block chevy......

I want to buy from Dyno-Flo a 434 SHP dart Block...but I want to make me a setup with the more HP possible...I do mostly Street..but I want to have a little monster on the track...

with my 468 CI on 175 hp nitrous on full 74 nova without roll bar and only fiberglass hood, I went 10.26 at 133 mph on quarter miles.

TH350, 4.10 gear, 30 inch hoosier slick 30 X 12.5 X 15 With B&M holeshot 3500 rpm stall.....

For this setup I already have

Electric water pump, complete mallory nitrous ignition system (coil, distributor 6 nitrous box)....comp cams Full roller gold rockers 7/16 (1.630 spring)


There is my problem...I allot of choice for the setup..I need your help for the best power on the street and the track...

What kind of head will be best :
Dart pro one 230cc
Dart pro one 227cc CNC ported
AFR???

For the headers....Will I have to buy 2 inch primary headers or 1 7/8 will be better (3.5 connector at the base)

For the intake...Will I have to buy Dart intake.....

And the final last choice and the most important....What Mechanical Roller camshaft I have to buy......

I want to maximize horspower....you help will be really appreciate...

If possible, want to keep my 3500 stall...but thats not a problem..

I still have my complete Edelbrock nitrous system (adjustable from 100 to 250 hp...)...

ahhh forgot to tell.....I still have my 950 Holley HP carburetor....Will it be alright on my 434...

I want to tank you everybody will help me especially guy that run 434 on dyno..before an tried setup...

Stephane
Dart CNC 227's of AFR 227's would be my choice is sticking with a off the shelf 23* head. For a 434 I would think 2" with those kinda heads would be good. I looked into a set for my 406 when I swap to 13:1. For a cam I would talk to a serious engine builder. Raher Morrison, Scott Shafiroff and Chris Uratchko are the 3 I like best. I think the 950 HP will be small since it really only flows 830CFM and I've been told 830 is a good CFM for my mild 406.
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 84TA406
Dart CNC 227's of AFR 227's would be my choice is sticking with a off the shelf 23* head. For a 434 I would think 2" with those kinda heads would be good. I looked into a set for my 406 when I swap to 13:1. For a cam I would talk to a serious engine builder. Raher Morrison, Scott Shafiroff and Chris Uratchko are the 3 I like best. I think the 950 HP will be small since it really only flows 830CFM and I've been told 830 is a good CFM for my mild 406.
I forgot one thing......I want to run on 91 octan gaz so my maximum compression have to be around 11:0 CR.....If the 950hp is too small what carb I need to run...and what camshaft....

Thanks...will it be better to run a monster mechanical camshaft or roller mechanical will be better......Do I have to go more than 600 lift...

Stephane
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:04 PM
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For the combo you're planning to run I would talk to a engine builder or custom cam manu. like Bullet cams. They can help you more than any of us probably can. For a carb I would talk to Pro Systems, they might be able to modify your 950 to suit your needs and save some $.
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 84TA406
For the combo you're planning to run I would talk to a engine builder or custom cam manu. like Bullet cams. They can help you more than any of us probably can. For a carb I would talk to Pro Systems, they might be able to modify your 950 to suit your needs and save some $.
Bullet cam....never heard about that camshaft brand before....I always used comp cams camshaft.......I will tried to talk to them...

For the camshaft...I know my carb worth allot of $$$$...but modified it will cost allot of $$$$$...I was running this on my BBC before..and the guy who buy it to me ....are really interest to buy it...so Will it be better to buy another right carburetor or modified mine..

that's the question!!!
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Old 06-20-2009, 04:57 AM
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The carb you have will support over 700 hp.Bullet cams are well known in the circle track world, very good cams.Lunati is also an exellent choice.Or go on speedtalk.com and ask your ? of Mike jones or harold Brookshire they will set you up.
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Old 06-20-2009, 06:29 AM
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What do you consider MAX HP? Why is HP the goal? If you want to have a fast car in the ET, why focus on HP? Makes no sense. I can show you car after car that has 10% less power on the dyno than another car of similar weight and the trap times are better. It's all about the setup not the dyno number. Get your head out of the dyno number. If you're doing it to impress your friends on a dyno, that's fine, but if you want to run trap times, that's different. Setting up the suspension right will do far more than HP.

With all due respect 10.XX on that sized motor isn't all that impressive. I suspect that build was done much the same way you're trying to do this one, with internet advice and cool parts. Talk to builders, break out the checkbook, establish the budget, and establish the application. Speed isn't cheap. If you never heard of Bullet, you haven't been serious and haven't done your homework. You're saying you want professional results in a consumer world.

Bullet is one of the oldest and most respected cam builders on the market. I have a Bullet cam. They are one of the top people in the business. The fact you never heard of them indicates to me you've been talking to the wrong people.

I'd look at the Brodix Raised Runner Cantered Valve X-10, X-11 for that motor with a Jensel system on top. Get them worked by RHS or someone similar with a good reputation. If you plan on spinning the motor up the redline, the X-10s can't be touched. Figure to spend about $5000. With all the heads mentioned there isn't .2 between them depending on the rest of the setup.

Talk to Chris Uratchko. I know him well, he's a good guy. If you buy his motor and you go injected, you'll be using my injectors. Chirs is one of the best. There's also Pat Musi, who built my motor, Sonny Lenord is another. Lots of good builders out there.

Bottom line, it's your money and if you want to spend it by bolting a collection of cool parts together recommended by people with bias on the internet with more consideration for their ego than your build, you're going to get the same 10.XX result you got in the first build. Been a pet peeve of my for years.

Last edited by Jsup; 06-20-2009 at 07:06 AM.
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Old 06-20-2009, 10:07 AM
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Bottom line, it's your money and if you want to spend it by bolting a collection of cool parts together recommended by people with bias on the internet with more consideration for their ego than your build, you're going to get the same 10.XX result you got in the first build. Been a pet peeve of my for years.
Uratchko is a good recommendation, and there are many many other qualified builders to get you what you want. Trick is, for you to be specific about your needs/wants and complete set-up. You want a smaller engine to do the same or better as your bigblock, and that is not a hard task with your choice of block and cubes. Whatever, if you get the combo right you will not be disappointed. Bullet, as many other cam outfits do not only do one type of camshaft (for any specific racing) but they are popluar with many racers because the grinds work well. Like Bayny17 says about Mike Jones and Harold B. Those guys are like the bestest. Personally, I would not run a Comp Cams anything. I would look at an AFR head first, and then see what comes close instead of going the other way. RHS has the Pro Elite head too. No doubt the lesser valve angle will produce most power but no need to go exotic or get into a shaft set up unless you have the coin and/or need it. What you are wanting to do is going to cost plenty. Think it out and let the opinions roll, use them in combination with your own ideas and come up with a plan and stick to it. If you are serious and are going to fork over the bills, do it right, do it once. Post up your entire combination for better results. As always... JMO
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Old 06-20-2009, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deez
Uratchko is a good recommendation, and there are many many other qualified builders to get you what you want. Trick is, for you to be specific about your needs/wants and complete set-up. You want a smaller engine to do the same or better as your bigblock, and that is not a hard task with your choice of block and cubes. Whatever, if you get the combo right you will not be disappointed. Bullet, as many other cam outfits do not only do one type of camshaft (for any specific racing) but they are popluar with many racers because the grinds work well. Like Bayny17 says about Mike Jones and Harold B. Those guys are like the bestest. Personally, I would not run a Comp Cams anything. I would look at an AFR head first, and then see what comes close instead of going the other way. RHS has the Pro Elite head too. No doubt the lesser valve angle will produce most power but no need to go exotic or get into a shaft set up unless you have the coin and/or need it. What you are wanting to do is going to cost plenty. Think it out and let the opinions roll, use them in combination with your own ideas and come up with a plan and stick to it. If you are serious and are going to fork over the bills, do it right, do it once. Post up your entire combination for better results. As always... JMO
My only proble with that whole thing is you set up AFR as the head by which all others are judged and I vehemently disagree. They are cheaper sometimes, not better always
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsup
What do you consider MAX HP? Why is HP the goal? If you want to have a fast car in the ET, why focus on HP? Makes no sense. I can show you car after car that has 10% less power on the dyno than another car of similar weight and the trap times are better. It's all about the setup not the dyno number. Get your head out of the dyno number. If you're doing it to impress your friends on a dyno, that's fine, but if you want to run trap times, that's different. Setting up the suspension right will do far more than HP.

With all due respect 10.XX on that sized motor isn't all that impressive. I suspect that build was done much the same way you're trying to do this one, with internet advice and cool parts. Talk to builders, break out the checkbook, establish the budget, and establish the application. Speed isn't cheap. If you never heard of Bullet, you haven't been serious and haven't done your homework. You're saying you want professional results in a consumer world.

Bullet is one of the oldest and most respected cam builders on the market. I have a Bullet cam. They are one of the top people in the business. The fact you never heard of them indicates to me you've been talking to the wrong people.

I'd look at the Brodix Raised Runner Cantered Valve X-10, X-11 for that motor with a Jensel system on top. Get them worked by RHS or someone similar with a good reputation. If you plan on spinning the motor up the redline, the X-10s can't be touched. Figure to spend about $5000. With all the heads mentioned there isn't .2 between them depending on the rest of the setup.

Talk to Chris Uratchko. I know him well, he's a good guy. If you buy his motor and you go injected, you'll be using my injectors. Chirs is one of the best. There's also Pat Musi, who built my motor, Sonny Lenord is another. Lots of good builders out there.

Bottom line, it's your money and if you want to spend it by bolting a collection of cool parts together recommended by people with bias on the internet with more consideration for their ego than your build, you're going to get the same 10.XX result you got in the first build. Been a pet peeve of my for years.
O.k.....I probably making mistake when I was saying max HP. With my last setup (bbc)....10:1 CR, iron eagle head 305cc and a 595 lift magnum mechanical camshaft + 175 shot of NOS, I was making 10.26 at 133 mph...I know for a 3500 pounds nova (with me inside) it's not really impressive for people who run a big block chevy setup. My 468CI was working well...but tend to stay too hot on the street when I was driving it...

That's why I sell it and go with SBC (normally they tend to be allot colder in temp thant bbc)....

On my Car, I Already have a good rear suspension system :
Competition engineering slide a link, landrum mono leaf spring and QA1 adjustalble valving position shocks...with a 12 bold with Strange shaft and 4.10 Gear.

It's not because I'm dont know the bullet cam than I know nothing...I'M living in canada....and normally on cam selection, most of the people here go with comp cams, crane, crower, lunati, howard or maby another custom grind from those company.....

I want MAKE really good HP number and have a really good time on the 1/4 miles....

MY GOAL WAS CHANGED THIS MORNING...The guy who buying me my BBC this morning, came to see me and asked me to sold my 950hp carb, complete nitrous system and my brand new mallory system ignition .....

With the extra money...I have around 9.5 grant to make a really good and impressive small block.....

I always have a dream...since a while...I want to have a big block...I see an add yesterday night...and the guy sell a 8-71 sbc blower (weiand) with carbs and all the setup (never started) for a good price....

Dyno-Flo will sell me the shortblock...but When I was looking for blower piston...it seem that big cubic inches sbc...doesn'Tseem to make allot of piston with the big bore and big stroke for a SBC...If I want to have a Big cubic inches with a Blower..it's seem to be hard to have it......I was visiting JE piston and the internet sites, they only made piston around 4.125 bore..but only 3.750 stroke...SRP same...

I only tried to make a fast and good looking car to run on a low 10 on the quarter miles...I dont make any money with the 1/4 and I want have a good ET bracket and keep the same time on the 1/4....

That's my goal....Not impressed my friend...they already impress by my low 10 with a mild bbc....I do that for me only...

I just want to not be disapointed...

And one other thing JSUP...I dont have money to buy a jesel rocker setup system and 4000$ head..I was looking for a set of Gold comp cams roller rockers or the best normal roller rockers from comp cams or crane..I think will be perfect for me.......My maximum budget allow me to go with dart pro one head and maybe AFR...but not more than that...

Want to have a Roller camshaft..(I know it's better than having a flat tappet)...but maybe have to go with mechanical roller (less expensive)...to make my project happen......Your Understand now!!!!
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Old 06-20-2009, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratoflic
O.k.....I probably making mistake when I was saying max HP. With my last setup (bbc)....10:1 CR, iron eagle head 305cc and a 595 lift magnum mechanical camshaft + 175 shot of NOS, I was making 10.26 at 133 mph...I know for a 3500 pounds nova (with me inside) it's not really impressive for people who run a big block chevy setup. My 468CI was working well...but tend to stay too hot on the street when I was driving it...

That's why I sell it and go with SBC (normally they tend to be allot colder in temp thant bbc)....

On my Car, I Already have a good rear suspension system :
Competition engineering slide a link, landrum mono leaf spring and QA1 adjustalble valving position shocks...with a 12 bold with Strange shaft and 4.10 Gear.

It's not because I'm dont know the bullet cam than I know nothing...I'M living in canada....and normally on cam selection, most of the people here go with comp cams, crane, crower, lunati, howard or maby another custom grind from those company.....

I want MAKE really good HP number and have a really good time on the 1/4 miles....

MY GOAL WAS CHANGED THIS MORNING...The guy who buying me my BBC this morning, came to see me and asked me to sold my 950hp carb, complete nitrous system and my brand new mallory system ignition .....

With the extra money...I have around 9.5 grant to make a really good and impressive small block.....

I always have a dream...since a while...I want to have a big block...I see an add yesterday night...and the guy sell a 8-71 sbc blower (weiand) with carbs and all the setup (never started) for a good price....

Dyno-Flo will sell me the shortblock...but When I was looking for blower piston...it seem that big cubic inches sbc...doesn'Tseem to make allot of piston with the big bore and big stroke for a SBC...If I want to have a Big cubic inches with a Blower..it's seem to be hard to have it......I was visiting JE piston and the internet sites, they only made piston around 4.125 bore..but only 3.750 stroke...SRP same...

I only tried to make a fast and good looking car to run on a low 10 on the quarter miles...I dont make any money with the 1/4 and I want have a good ET bracket and keep the same time on the 1/4....

That's my goal....Not impressed my friend...they already impress by my low 10 with a mild bbc....I do that for me only...

I just want to not be disapointed...

And one other thing JSUP...I dont have money to buy a jesel rocker setup system and 4000$ head..I was looking for a set of Gold comp cams roller rockers or the best normal roller rockers from comp cams or crane..I think will be perfect for me.......My maximum budget allow me to go with dart pro one head and maybe AFR...but not more than that...

Want to have a Roller camshaft..(I know it's better than having a flat tappet)...but maybe have to go with mechanical roller (less expensive)...to make my project happen......Your Understand now!!!!

Ok.

1. There is a budget
2. You are shooting for ET
3. You didn't understand my comments on suspension. I wasn't referring to the parts I was referring to dialing in the parts you have. I can point to a recent post that the driver picked up .5 simply by dialing in their suspension
4.You still are usinh HP as the yardstick

What I am saying is a well dialed in car from front to rear will run better than a higher HP mess.

We found out you have 4.11s great, that is good to know when picking the cam.

I'm doing you a favor. I have a local guy here who built a motor to forum spec and got his clock cleaned by "junkyard builders" who didn't use all the cool parts.

HP shouldn't be the goal ET should be they are not necessarily tied together. Don't confuse the two


Btw. Posting from BB so if I miss something, sorry. No acess at the beach house. Also not trying to be short or sarcastic. Just don't catch it all on the BB sometimes
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Old 06-20-2009, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsup
Ok.

1. There is a budget
2. You are shooting for ET
3. You didn't understand my comments on suspension. I wasn't referring to the parts I was referring to dialing in the parts you have. I can point to a recent post that the driver picked up .5 simply by dialing in their suspension
4.You still are usinh HP as the yardstick

What I am saying is a well dialed in car from front to rear will run better than a higher HP mess.

We found out you have 4.11s great, that is good to know when picking the cam.

I'm doing you a favor. I have a local guy here who built a motor to forum spec and got his clock cleaned by "junkyard builders" who didn't use all the cool parts.

HP shouldn't be the goal ET should be they are not necessarily tied together. Don't confuse the two


Btw. Posting from BB so if I miss something, sorry. No acess at the beach house. Also not trying to be short or sarcastic. Just don't catch it all on the BB sometimes
No probleme JSUP....

Your right...I have a well suspension..but my suspension is not at the maximum tunning...in fact...I never tuned or be fixed by a master mechanical suspension specialist..I will do that before the next drag strip (when my engine will be in the car...

In fact...I want to have the biggest CI small block as possible with my budget..or bigger than 400 CI...A blown, i dream about it since a long time ago...and I think there my chance .....but I think I will break my budget...I have to take the weekend to tink about it....

For me....The 227cc Dart cnc head cost me 1000$ canadian dollars more thant the 230cc dart pro one....Since I want to have a streetable car..I think it could be wise to take the 230$$..They cost me 1600 cdn $$...and for other parts on engine..dart intake, roller rockers from comp cams...good comp cams pushrod....and the right carbs.....good oil pan...etc...The only thing, is the blower setup at the cheap price...have 2 750 holley vacuum carburetor..not blow true..carb...I think it will cost allot of $$$ to send it to a carb guru to modified it...I have no idea what will be the price....

I really have to look my budget...it's not a 5 grant engine...

3000 the short block
300 oil pan
3000 the complete blower setup
1600 head

I'm at 7900 and no camshaft, ignition setup, roller rockers..etc....

I need to make a choice...

That why I need the advice of people are build since a long time....

If I can put a Mechanical camshaft....but one that pull me strong on all the mid range to high range...I will be happy with...

I will make my choice and let you know..

Thanks again!!!
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Old 06-20-2009, 05:25 PM
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One Ouestion How many RPM are you planning on turn it up to?
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Old 06-20-2009, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by racecar100
One Ouestion How many RPM are you planning on turn it up to?
Around 7500......If I go N/A and If I have enough money to put a blower....probably 6000 rpm maximum..I know with a blower, they normally dont need to go higher in rpm...the torque is normally in lower rpm number...

With my last setup, BBC, I was shifting at 7000 rpm...

Why this question

Stephane
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Old 06-20-2009, 09:10 PM
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Just playin' around on the DynoSim this afternoon and put this together.....
434 Chevy 4.155" x 4.000"
AFR 227 Competition heads, part # 1120, 75cc chambers
http://www.airflowresearch.com/store...?cPath=1_2_114
Flat-top pistons w/5cc valve reliefs, 1.000" compression height (yields 11.00:1 static compression ratio with 4.200" x 0.040" gasket and zero deck).
6.000" rods. Yields 9.000" stack with 2.000" crank radius and 1.000" piston compression height. Squish = 0.040".
Large tube, equal length open headers.
CompCams 12-910-9 solid roller cam. Yields 8.392:1 dynamic compression ratio installed straight up (pump gas friendly). Cam timing at 0.050" tappet lift....IVO 24 BTDC, IVC 56 ABDC, EVO 58 BBDC, EVC 26 ATDC. Oval track sprint car grind, but works best of 8 cams I tried in this motor. 106/106/106. Made best torque 2000-7000 of all cams tried. (I'm all about torque).
http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/Ca...?csid=342&sb=0
950 CFM carb on dual-plane, high-rise intake manifold. Dual plane made more hp and torque through 6000. Single plane makes slightly more from 6500 to redline, but gives up a ton 2000 to 6000.

RPM HP TQ
2000 163 428
2500 217 457
3000 275 481
3500 348 523
4000 429 563
4500 512 597
5000 581 610
5500 627 600
6000 658 576
6500 661 534
7000 655 492
7500 634 444
This combination reaches 100.1% volumetric efficiency @5500.

Last edited by techinspector1; 06-20-2009 at 09:33 PM.
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