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Old 09-28-2006, 09:12 PM
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440 + Barry Grant

Hi All,

I recently built a 440:

Lunati cam (480/292)
Stainless valves (2.14 intake & 1.81 exhaust)
TWR pistons (bored .30 over)
Mallory distributor, MSD ignition & blaster coil.
Blue printed, line honed, and balanced.
Barry Grant Speed Demon 750, vac sec
Comp ratio estimated at 9.8:1
Stock fuel lines and stock mechanical pump
'78 440 Heads - no porting, just valve job and bigger int/exh

I'm having a major problem with pinging at total advance around 30 degrees. From everything I've seen I should be able to get 38 total advance. Everytime I go over 30 total advance the 440 really responds nicely except for ALOT of ping at WOT. Pulled a plug and found that it's been running lean with the Barry Grant 750 Speed Demon. I took it to a performance shop and they rejetted 10 sizes higher than stock and we're still running lean. We cannot figure this out

The distrubuter has 20 deg advance and to avoid ping I set the initial advance at 10.

Any ideas on a lean condition after all that jetting? Confirmed we're at 7psi at idle and 6psi under load at about 2200rpm (held the brake on and checked).

Thanks!

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Last edited by 440Charger; 09-28-2006 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 09-29-2006, 06:05 AM
Technical Support Barry Grant
 
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With your compression ratio, and that carburetor you should be able to get enough fuel through it without any problems. A couple of questions:

1) Is this a complete new build, or has this engine, carburetor, fuel system ran before?

2) Have you tried different fuel to see if a better grade of fuel helps?

3) What do the spark plugs, and exhaust ports look like?

4) Did anything change (better or worse) running, knocking, etc. when you upped the jets?
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Old 09-29-2006, 07:09 AM
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Fuel Pressure?

How much fuel pressure and volume do you have at WOT? sounds like the lean condition is due to not enough fuel being in the bowls to me.
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Old 09-29-2006, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech @ BG
With your compression ratio, and that carburetor you should be able to get enough fuel through it without any problems. A couple of questions:

1) Is this a complete new build, or has this engine, carburetor, fuel system ran before?

2) Have you tried different fuel to see if a better grade of fuel helps?

3) What do the spark plugs, and exhaust ports look like?

4) Did anything change (better or worse) running, knocking, etc. when you upped the jets?
Tech @ Bg,

1) We have maybe 2000 miles on it with various carbs. I don't know if we were running this lean before the speed demon.

2) The highest octane I have access to is 92. There is a local pump that has non oxygenated 92 so we try to use that when we can. I'm in MN so I'm pretty sure I'm getting 10% ethanol at every pump (state law).

3) The plugs stayed white during our jet testing, but as of yesterday they are light grey.

4) As we upped the jets and made runs, we noticed small power improvements and a meatier sound. We stopped at 10 sizes, checked the plugs one last time and we were lean...plug coloration didn't change. Also, we were unable to increase the timing as we upped the jets due to ping. No bad side effects though like knocking, ect...

I should also mention that I'm using a 4-hole spacer.

Also, the guy that helped us with the jetting told us to check our idle mixture by placing fingers over two air bleeds at the secondaries...he did that and the idle drops way down and he said that's because the idle is running too rich. He turned in the mixture screws until it idled nicely while blocking those holes...but then it becomes undrivable at low rpm..cuts out when you hit the gas, ect. So I set them back to 1 1/2 turns out and it's much better, but apparently too rich??

Last edited by 440Charger; 09-29-2006 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 09-29-2006, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 48 Dodge
How much fuel pressure and volume do you have at WOT? sounds like the lean condition is due to not enough fuel being in the bowls to me.
7lbs at idle and 6lbs under load (held the brake and hit the gas) at about 2200rpm. I don't have a guage inside the car so we did the best we could with a guage at the engine.

Yeah 48 Dodge, that thought crossed out minds also. I was thinking about installed a high volume mechanical pump and just leaving the lines alone. Does it make sense to upgrade the pump but not the lines?
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Old 09-29-2006, 12:41 PM
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I would try the high volume pump first. Does the car have a 5/16" or 3/8" fuel line in it?
A 3/8" line will feed a fairly hungry big block, but the 5/16" may not.

Also, check it and see if there are any kinks in it - I have had that happen and really lower the volume of fuel delivery.
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Old 09-29-2006, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 48 Dodge
I would try the high volume pump first. Does the car have a 5/16" or 3/8" fuel line in it?
A 3/8" line will feed a fairly hungry big block, but the 5/16" may not.

Also, check it and see if there are any kinks in it - I have had that happen and really lower the volume of fuel delivery.
5/16'' lines

I don't see any kinks, but there are a couple places where we go from metal line to rubber near the distributer because of the angles needed.
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Old 09-29-2006, 01:33 PM
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I think that the stocker pump may be a bigger problem than the small line. Try it first at any rate.
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Old 09-29-2006, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 48 Dodge
I think that the stocker pump may be a bigger problem than the small line. Try it first at any rate.
Any recommendations on a fuel pump? I was looking at this one:
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...tegoryId=10305
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Old 09-29-2006, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 440Charger
Tech @ Bg,

1) We have maybe 2000 miles on it with various carbs. I don't know if we were running this lean before the speed demon.

2) The highest octane I have access to is 92. There is a local pump that has non oxygenated 92 so we try to use that when we can. I'm in MN so I'm pretty sure I'm getting 10% ethanol at every pump (state law).

3) The plugs stayed white during our jet testing, but as of yesterday they are light grey.

4) As we upped the jets and made runs, we noticed small power improvements and a meatier sound. We stopped at 10 sizes, checked the plugs one last time and we were lean...plug coloration didn't change. Also, we were unable to increase the timing as we upped the jets due to ping. No bad side effects though like knocking, ect...

I should also mention that I'm using a 4-hole spacer.

Also, the guy that helped us with the jetting told us to check our idle mixture by placing fingers over two air bleeds at the secondaries...he did that and the idle drops way down and he said that's because the idle is running too rich. He turned in the mixture screws until it idled nicely while blocking those holes...but then it becomes undrivable at low rpm..cuts out when you hit the gas, ect. So I set them back to 1 1/2 turns out and it's much better, but apparently too rich??

Sounds like the carburetor is working properly (although lean) if you're starting to see some color by going up in the jetting. As far as your tuners deal... Covering the air bleeds is going to make the engine run VERY rich, so it should bog down some, if you go in the mixture screws to the point the RPM doesn't change you've gone too far.

Where in the windows do you have your float levels set at?
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Old 09-29-2006, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech @ BG
Sounds like the carburetor is working properly (although lean) if you're starting to see some color by going up in the jetting. As far as your tuners deal... Covering the air bleeds is going to make the engine run VERY rich, so it should bog down some, if you go in the mixture screws to the point the RPM doesn't change you've gone too far.

Where in the windows do you have your float levels set at?
Currently, the float level on the primary is just over half, and secondary is near the top. We've previously tried to keep the levels right at half on both, but I'm just trying something new based on an article I read that said a higher float level will put more fuel through the jets.
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Old 09-29-2006, 02:42 PM
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Did raising the float level make any changes?
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Old 09-29-2006, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 440Charger
Any recommendations on a fuel pump? I was looking at this one:
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...tegoryId=10305

The good old carters work well and live a long time. 120 GPH should do it for you, and then some.

these things fed Hemis for a long time, so they should do it for your 440.
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Old 09-29-2006, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech @ BG
Did raising the float level make any changes?
Well, it's one of those changes where you're not sure if it's your imagination or real....it seemed to lessen the ping so I bumped the timing to about 34 from 30.

I get ping at WOT now in 2nd and 3rd gear, which I expected. The throttle response is so much better that I hate to bump it back down so I just drive it carefully.

Oh, and when I checked the plug yesterday (light grey), I had already raised the float levels that day.
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Old 09-29-2006, 02:58 PM
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Good news! It feels so good when you start to figure something out doesn't it?

That still seems to speak to volume to me - more fuel in the bowl in first gear, no ping. I would replace that pump and probably the fuel line with 3/8" before you melt something.

Probably runs way better with the timing up - you would like more initial advance with that big of a cam, and 14 is probably about right.
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