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Old 03-25-2012, 09:27 PM
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454 chevy, think i might have too much cam

Got an elgin cam for a 454 but think now it might be too much, the motor is .030 over, kb hyper pistons, 9:1 comp, 781 heads 2.19/1.88 valves, single plane intake, holley hp 830 carb, flowtech longtubes, the cam is hydraulic flat tappet,specs are Lift: .528/.552 Duration: 302/308 Duration @ .050": 224/234 Lobe Separation: 114 LC Lopey idle, wild street/strip.

Im feeling like it has way too much duration and wont come alive until somewhere in the 3000rpm range, need something that would come to life between 2000~2500, and will have to be another elgin so it can be exchanged.

Is this one fine or should i get something else?

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Old 03-25-2012, 09:53 PM
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It might be best to call up the manufacturer of the cam (elgin) and ask them at least that is what I would do.
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:00 PM
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For a 454 that cam is not too big, as long as you are using a set of 3.42:1 or lower (numerically higher) and you plan to use around a 2800 stall then you will be just fine. I'm not a fan of the 76 degree difference between the advertised duration and the duration at 050, I like this to be around 50 degrees. But for a nice street motor this won't be bad at all. I'm not sure as to why they have it listed as a "wild street/strip". I think it would be more considered a hi-po street grind. You will certainly be making plenty of power below 3000rpm. If what you are looking for is a stout street motor with a little lope then this cam will be just fine.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:57 PM
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That's a big cam especially for a street engine with cast pistons in it, the combo is a bit mismatched for durability and driveability...but that all depends on what your vehicle is...how much it weighs...how much gear and what kind of trans your going to run particularly if your going auto because your going to need a decent stall to get it out of the hole.

Lots of ifs in that paragraph...in other words more info needed...but for a big block that's going to be turning above 4K all the time just to stay above stall speed with an auto your going to need better reciprocating parts than just cast pistons at 9:1 to get durability.

If your looking for a hp/cube you don't need that cam, 290@0.050 is plenty.
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4 Jaw Chuck
That's a big cam especially for a street engine with cast pistons in it, the combo is a bit mismatched for durability and driveability...but that all depends on what your vehicle is...how much it weighs...how much gear and what kind of trans your going to run particularly if your going auto because your going to need a decent stall to get it out of the hole.

Lots of ifs in that paragraph...in other words more info needed...but for a big block that's going to be turning above 4K all the time just to stay above stall speed with an auto your going to need better reciprocating parts than just cast pistons at 9:1 to get durability.

If your looking for a hp/cube you don't need that cam, 290@0.050 is plenty.



this cam is 302/308 advertised duration, and 224/234 duration at .050 right, i know it can't be 302/308 @ .050 as that would be way too much. but i dont see how 224/234 @ .050 in a decent sized cube 454 would be too much for the street. i deal more with small blocks, not as good with big blocks but i certainly wouldnt think that duration is too much. now i dont like the advertised duration, but that is my opinion.

the cam you have is E1070 advertised duration 302/308, 224/234 duration at .050, .528/.552" with a 114LSA. this is not a racing cam, more of a nice street cam. it looks like it is an old design but still a strong street cam.

i didn't read the original post that well to notice the single plane intake, i think that you would be much better off with a dual plane intake.

i still say that the cam you have is just fine. i'm not sure what 4 Jaw Chuck is talking about unless he mixed up his durations. i know he is knowlegeble as he is one of the forum moderators
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:20 PM
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with your cam leaving the valves open longer { 300 deg duration} you loose a bit of vacuum and low rpm air speed torque, but by buying a dual plane intake like a rpm air gap or even the rpm dual plane manifold, this will help increase low rpm air speed which will make a crisper throttle and more torque at low rpms and help keep higher vacuum for any power accessories.. your cam and carb are fine, you just have the wrong intake... A single plane intake does not start making power until above 3500-4500 rpm depending on aplication, reason is a single plane manifold is more open and creates better air speed in the manifold at higher rpms because of it being more open , so a relative stock motor will be very sluggish at rpms below 3500 which in most cases is is cusing rpm.. Now if you buy a dual plane manifold and want a little bit more mid to top end, buy a one inch carb spacer and that will move the power band up a bit which in most cases is the choice that most will go to, but its a trail and error situation...

hope this helps
Jon
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:47 PM
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And don't forget that the carb is way too big. Drop to a 750 and feel the torque difference.






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Old 03-26-2012, 11:24 PM
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Ordinarily, I don't post on big block questions. But, I personally think the duration is fine. The KBs at 9:1 are fine, if that's the calc'd ratio, not just what the piston catalog said. The LCA at 114, I think, is in your favor. I also think the carb will likely be okay. I do agree that the long advertised duration is a bit of an issue, but it indicates slow ramp rates, which should help to keep your cam alive a little longer in this world of "poor" motor oils. I also agree that the single plane intake will negatively impact your overall power curve. An RPM air gap would work better unless you'll be driving in a cold climate, in which case I'd use a regular RPM Performer type intake. Lastly. . . You cannot be too careful with the ring gaps. Follow the KB instructions TO THE LETTER, and you should be okay.

PatM
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Old 03-27-2012, 05:16 AM
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what gear and stall?

intake is wrong. You need a dual plane. I would use a regular RPM intake, Not air gap (due to slow warm ups).

Your cam would work best with a 3.40+ gear and some extra stall.

I would run 20 degrees of timing at idle and 40 total with that cam, heads, pistons, and compression. Then get and adjustable vacuum advance canister and set it to add 10 degrees more and use manifold vacuum. So it will idle at 30 and go to 50 degrees under no load (high vacuum, and higher rpms).

Idle it at 1000 rpms then set the idle a/f mixture screws for the highest idle which would also be the highest vacuum.

I like the lazy lobe ramps on a 454, as BBC tend to eat cams and todays oils don't help flat cams live a long life.

I think if you use the timing listed above, you will see a big difference. And it doesn't cost anything. Later, swap the intake.

Finally, a cam like this will need headers.
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:30 AM
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the way you listed the specs is hard to read
Duration @ .050": 224/234
is this correct? if so, I think you are ok
it should be fine

I would switch intake to an Eddy RPM
the rest looks good to me
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Old 06-26-2013, 08:08 PM
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I'm reading up on how to time my 454, and found this thread in my search.

My first cam was a 224/232 @0.50 with 114 LSA and it was awfully lazy. It also had a VERY slight lope (more like a "burble") ... I was disappointed.

When it crapped the bed (wiped a lobe) I decided to take it up a couple of notches, and now have a Comp Cams #11-250-3 (XE284H)
240/246 @ 0.50 with 110 LSA

RPM Air-Gap intake, so it idles like a can of rocks when it's cold, and needs a bit of babysitting while it's warming up. It now has a distinct lope and idles quite well at 900 - 1000 warm. No vaccuum guage hooked up, but I'm sure it's going to be low ... that's why I went with hydroboost brakes.

It's also much more responsive when you blip the throttle ... sounds NASTY!
(Which is exactly what I wanted.)
It does have a lean stumble, which I intend to cure very shortly with a change from 0.31 to 0.35 shooter and (orange?) cam. I know that Holley's recommendation is to go up an increment of 3 on those shooters ... but it goes from 0.32 to 0.35.

I'm also aware that this cam calls for more compression than I have. Forged flat-tops with bone-stock (other than springs) 781 heads. I don't know for sure what the compression might actually be ... but I would think about 8:1? (I was dreaming of a blower upgrade path ... more for show than go.)

Yes, I'm running a B&M Nitrous Holeshot converter with an advertised 2400 RPM stall in a TH400 with 3.73:1 gears. This is in a pickup truck that the old 250 6-banger 3-on-the-tree would bust one rear tire loose. So yeah ... I'm not all that concerned with instant off-the-line HP/TQ. Being a bit doggy might actually be a good thing.

So ... I have the Crane #99600-1 adjustable vac advance, and I'm wondering if this "17 + 10 / 38 + 10, all in by 3000" scenario right for me?

At this moment, it's a reman GM HEI with stock springs. Will I need to change those out too, to get where I want to be?

Last edited by 66GMC; 06-26-2013 at 08:16 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:31 AM
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My old 1080 Z-28 had an 830 holley/Isky Z-55 cam,LS-5 short block,vic Jr oval port,same heads/valves,hooker headers,ran high 11s. The 830 is a little sensitive.
torque was not an issue,throttle response was good.
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Old 06-27-2013, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tchapps88 View Post
Got an elgin cam for a 454 but think now it might be too much, the motor is .030 over, kb hyper pistons, 9:1 comp, 781 heads 2.19/1.88 valves, single plane intake, holley hp 830 carb, flowtech longtubes, the cam is hydraulic flat tappet,specs are Lift: .528/.552 Duration: 302/308 Duration @ .050": 224/234 Lobe Separation: 114 LC Lopey idle, wild street/strip.

Im feeling like it has way too much duration and wont come alive until somewhere in the 3000rpm range, need something that would come to life between 2000~2500, and will have to be another elgin so it can be exchanged.

Is this one fine or should i get something else?
I would not use a flat tappet camshaft in the first place, period. But in order to show you how I would cam your motor, here is an offering from Crane that would haul the mail quite well for you in my opinion and would match up well with your static compression ratio.....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-10305
Hydraulic intensity is middle of the road 56 degrees, not enough to cause excessive pressures on the lifter/lobe interface and yet not slow enough to be lazy. Lobe separation angle of 110 degrees will help to make power on the low end as opposed to the 114 you're using now.
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