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Old 08-21-2011, 02:38 PM
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46 ford super deluxe sedan

recently found one for a price the wife and I can not pass up. interior already stripped, rust and body work minimal and it has a flat head in it that will later go in a rat rod. We have yet to pick up the car and currently are between garages so for now we will be doing some heavy planning and making advances one weekend at a time. This is to built as a family weekend tripper so drive ability is high on our list of priority, we are not a trailer queen family. I am thinking that the best route is as follows:
-find a new frame that the body can sit on with a little modification, do all the grunt work on that frame, media blasting and powder coating it first. not sure of a rear end yet, but disc on a all 4 corners and so on. i have a 351w and a c6 that I will be using for this project (hope this is the last time i transplant it)
-next, media blast the body, primer it, maybe throw a quick and dirty paint job on top and set it on the frame, get the car drivable and then do the body work.

pretty much everything i am comfortable with except the frame swap. this is all new territory to me and I am not sure where to start. my idea it just pull one from a salvage car, but are their any that are better suited then others? i see several guys use s-10 frames, but would that work for this project, or should i look for a car, i was thinking mid 80s crown Vic or caprice. i know some modding and cutting will be required, so that part does not worry. and maybe i am over thinking this whole proccess too. any suggestions?

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Old 08-21-2011, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docwolf
-find a new frame that the body can sit on with a little modification,


pretty much everything i am comfortable with except the frame swap.

any suggestions?

The BEST frame for the Ford is the one Henry put under it with upgrades.

You can buy a rear leaf suspension conversion



And front suspension also. This same company makes engine conversion parts also.

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Old 08-22-2011, 01:07 AM
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Deuce gives good advice, swapping frames is like adding a couple of frustrating months to a build. The frame you have can easily be modified, many places are making crossmembers that bolt in, the 8 inch Ford rear will be a suitable replacement, KISS, keep it simple, silly...
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Old 08-22-2011, 07:52 AM
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the problem is that right now, I need to get the car drivable as soon as i can. i don;t have a shop it can sit in for a few months at a time. A frame i can roll in and out and possible even complete in a weekend. so my thought was to swap frames out, plus i want over all ride and driveablity, so a A arm front end seems best, something common so that parts are affordable and so on. i see what you all are saying, but the truth is, this frame will later become my rat rod, so it will not go to waste, kinda kill multiple birds with one stone
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Old 08-22-2011, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docwolf
A frame i can roll in and out and possible even complete in a weekend. so my thought was to swap frames out

It is very obvious to me that you have never adapted another frame to a different vehicle

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Old 08-22-2011, 11:53 AM
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your right, i haven't , thus the reason i am here asking for input. it's not a undertaking i am afraid to move forward with. i am simply curious if one frame is better suited over another, i realize that some narrowing and length adjustment will be required. having worked as a custom fab weld for 2 years i am not scared to cut some steel. and as far as adapting a frame to another vehicle, it dose not need to completely plumbed to go under the body, though i see no reason why i can't complete a well planned mod in a single weekend, you have no idea what i am capable of. and frankly i am not here to impress you. i was looking for some advice, but i think i can already see that i am going to have issues on this forum. thank you for your time and attention, i assure i will accomplish my goal regardless of the lack of insight.
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Old 08-22-2011, 01:55 PM
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I just don't understand the attitude.....you really think you can adapt a late model chassis to an older car in a weekend....and drive it?? You come on here asking questions, get good advice from long time hot rod builders then get pi------ and have a "tude"

We have guys on here asking about putting the "Infamous" S-10 chassis under everything from a model T to a Peterbuilt. So my advice is....go ahead and build it. When you're in the middle of it you'll see what these guys were talking about.
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Old 08-22-2011, 01:59 PM
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The purpose of my thread was NOT to discourage you ... but to try and educate you. I have been doing this for over 40 years. I do not know of a single individual who can switch a matching frame in a complete weekend.

Wheelbase, frame width, length and body mounts all need attention in a change over swap. Plus getting the sheet metal to line up and the doors, hood and trunk lid to open and close properly is a time consuming process.

I see so many aborted projects ... that are started by members with GOOD intentions and end up with JUNK. They end up ruining two vehicles with nothing but scrap for their efforts.

You are asking frame swap information ... so it is obvious you do not KNOW
of a frame that will work

SO ...

Drive ON ... and prove me wrong
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Old 08-22-2011, 05:55 PM
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46 Ford

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce
The purpose of my thread was NOT to discourage you ... but to try and educate you. I have been doing this for over 40 years. I do not know of a single individual who can switch a matching frame in a complete weekend.

Wheelbase, frame width, length and body mounts all need attention in a change over swap. Plus getting the sheet metal to line up and the doors, hood and trunk lid to open and close properly is a time consuming process.

I see so many aborted projects ... that are started by members with GOOD intentions and end up with JUNK. They end up ruining two vehicles with nothing but scrap for their efforts.

You are asking frame swap information ... so it is obvious you do not KNOW
of a frame that will work

SO ...

Drive ON ... and prove me wrong
What Deuce says is good advice, I have a 46 ford coupe with a lot of the things on it, are in that ad, a lot of it just bolted on. You are right we don't have a clue on what you can do, but we know you can't get a 46 sedan to go on another cars frame, Get it all fitted put the doors on it, get them fitted, then put the front end on, with the thinking you already have the engine in, and line it all up. then you have the rad. support , well we will stop there that is a good half of days work.

You young guys come here which is great, but you must remember you are coming to our world. You don't come here with a question, and when you don't get the answer you want to hear, either keep on going, argue with who ever gave you an answer, waiting for us to give you what you want to hear.
Well if it's not right, or not safe you will not hear whatever. you can ask why to a answer but don't argue. You don't have to use what we say, you can go do it as you wish, we are not going to try and change your mind, we are going to tell you ways to do it right, safe, and so it will drive good. You can use the advice or not , but don't try and throw it back at us.

Just between the two of us, Deuce and I, we have almost 95 years of working on Hot Rods. And if you throw in the others that have posted, 327, and dinger, whose as old as dirt. there are a lot of years here. How many have you. So now it's down to, would you like to get a answer to your question or have you decided which frame you want to use and say thanks guys I have my answer. Your car, your choice.

Bob
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Old 08-22-2011, 07:47 PM
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i fully respect the years and knowledge you all have and what you are trying to say. with that said, i am not here to have a pissing match and personally the whole age argument is dated and pointless. i never said i wanted to roll into a shop on Friday night with a pile of parts and drive out a show car Sunday night. i want to spend the next three months planning a frame swap so that it can be done effectively. i assumed this was of common practice judging by the number of guys doing s-10 swaps. all i wanted was some insight, you advised as to how you would do it, the fact of the matter is that will not achieve the final product i am after. I am not building what i would call a resto rod, I am building a custom 46 ford super deluxe sedan that will go down the highway at 80 and ride the same or better then my 01 Dakota. obviously, my goals and your building techniques are on two different levels. with that said, it would appear that you do not have a experience required to advice me on the course i intend to follow. i appreciate your time and advice, but at this point i am going to just do my home work and start the design process of my own.
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Old 08-22-2011, 08:40 PM
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46 ford

Quote:
Originally Posted by Docwolf
i fully respect the years and knowledge you all have and what you are trying to say. with that said, i am not here to have a pissing match and personally the whole age argument is dated and pointless. i never said i wanted to roll into a shop on Friday night with a pile of parts and drive out a show car Sunday night. i want to spend the next three months planning a frame swap so that it can be done effectively. i assumed this was of common practice judging by the number of guys doing s-10 swaps. all i wanted was some insight, you advised as to how you would do it, the fact of the matter is that will not achieve the final product i am after. I am not building what i would call a resto rod, I am building a custom 46 ford super deluxe sedan that will go down the highway at 80 and ride the same or better then my 01 Dakota. obviously, my goals and your building techniques are on two different levels. with that said, it would appear that you do not have a experience required to advice me on the course i intend to follow. i appreciate your time and advice, but at this point i am going to just do my home work and start the design process of my own.
This 46 will go down the highway at 80+ if that was the speed limit, and I'm sure it rides better than your Dakota, and it has a 46 frame with mustang 2 front and 8.8 rear. And as others have said it will take you longer to put it on another frame ,as it will to redo this one. But have fun

Bob
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Old 08-23-2011, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docwolf
A frame i can roll in and out and possible even complete in a weekend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docwolf
i never said i wanted to roll into a shop on Friday night with a pile of parts and drive out a show car Sunday night.
i want to spend the next three months planning a frame swap so that it can be done effectively.
i assumed this was of common practice judging by the number of guys doing s-10 swaps.
For the sake of discussion ...

OK ... lets say we BOTH have 1946 Fords. You start on yours ... with a S-10 chassis sitting there ready to go ...
and I start with the parts I choose ... ready to go.

I choose this front end



and this rear end



In my shop .... besides 40 years experience I have a stick welder, a MiG welder, torches and a plasma cutter ... in addition to
40 years worth of collecting tools ( drill presses, cutters, grinders and a pair of full BIG Snap-On tool boxes )



I can install this complete front end in one day ... easily
and I can install the rear end in one day. ( done it a couple times in a day or less )

My project is up and rolling. 2 days. With motor mounts installed ( kit )
The doors open and close. So does the hood and the deck lid.
My wheel track is correct and the wheels are at the right wheelbase.
ALL because my frame and body were not separated.


Your S-10 chassis is here



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BLAZE...item334c08834e

The 46 has a wheelbase of 112 inches ... so you will need to add 13 inches
to the frame to get the S-10 to 112 inch wheelbase.
Or get a S-10 with 123 inch wheelbase and remove 9 inches.

What ???
1/2 day work. Remember measure 3 times and cut once.
Then weld back together and fabricate reinforcing brackets.
Then fabricate body mounts.

Your wheel track is too narrow ... for the 46. ( the 46 FORD has a 60 inch wheel mounting surface to WMS distance )
Your S-10 rear end is just over 54 inches WMS to WMS ... so you have 3 inches ...
( per side to figure out ... if the wheels will clear the body )
Check out where the steering box is ... will it have to be moved ???

This is a frame that fits a 1936/1940 Ford body. Very similar to the 46 frame.



Photo courtesy of DINGER ... fellow Hotrodder.com Moderator

Notice HOW the frames do not match anywhere ??

See the big kick up at the front and rear of the S-10 chassis ?
See how narrow the rear part of the frame is ( not so on the S-10 )

Lets pretend you got the body off the 46 in 1/2 a day ...
The next morning you sit it on your shortened but too narrow S-10 chassis.
None of the holes align ... and the frame comes
no where close to being where the 46 frame was.
SO you have to build blocks and mounts. Let's be optimistic and say 3 hours .
You need to fabricate a radiator support to hold the front sheet metal after you cut down the bumper supports
and raised frame section on the front of the S-10 chassis. Another couple hours.

You hang the front sheet metal ... but it does not fit well ... a couple more hours ...
and the doors and the trunk lid still does not close properly.

You need at least 3 or 4 buddies to help move all that metal around.
Lets not forget all the trips to the hardware store ... and parts house.

You still do not have as good a project and you do not have the engine mounts and ready for the engine.

__________________________________________

The point here is we have thousands of members here and not one member has come forward and said
... this is a great idea. I did it. Here is my project journal with photos TO PROVE it.

_____________________________________

Henry Ford said

" Do not tell me what you are going to do ... SHOW ME what you did "


______________________________________

This is too encourage ... investigation ... of the project NOT TALK YOU out of it.

Deuce ... Moderator
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Last edited by Deuce; 08-23-2011 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 08-23-2011, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docwolf
i fully respect the years and knowledge you all have and what you are trying to say. with that said, i am not here to have a pissing match and personally the whole age argument is dated and pointless. i never said i wanted to roll into a shop on Friday night with a pile of parts and drive out a show car Sunday night. i want to spend the next three months planning a frame swap so that it can be done effectively. i assumed this was of common practice judging by the number of guys doing s-10 swaps. all i wanted was some insight, you advised as to how you would do it, the fact of the matter is that will not achieve the final product i am after. I am not building what i would call a resto rod, I am building a custom 46 ford super deluxe sedan that will go down the highway at 80 and ride the same or better then my 01 Dakota. obviously, my goals and your building techniques are on two different levels. with that said, it would appear that you do not have a experience required to advice me on the course i intend to follow. i appreciate your time and advice, but at this point i am going to just do my home work and start the design process of my own.
Here is the insite, there is NO SUCH THING AS A FRAME "SWAP" other than the "swapped" from an exact same car!

There is nothing that has ruined more cars than the "Frame swap". To put a frame from another car under ANY car takes a LOT of fabrication. And NO not just the body mounts, there are MANY, MANY more things like where the frame has a hump that hits the floor, to control arms hitting the inner fenders, the rad support hitting the crossmember etc etc.

A frame swap does NOT save you time, money or work, it is as simple as that. It SWAPS the time, money and work to another frame is all it does.


You have not been listening, you are talking to guys who have built a lot of cars, seen a lot of cars, have a passion for cars and hotrodding.

Heck, even the front frame clip I put on my 48 Chevy pickup I regard as one of the worse mistakes I ever did, and it was SUPER EASY compared to a full frame swap on a 46 Ford sedan! It was like making a friggin PP&J compared to a full frame swap on that Ford!

The 48 Ford frame shape is VERY complex and NOTHING but NOTHING is going to fit by way of a modern car, NO-THING.

Slow down, slow down and start doing your home work modifying your stock frame. IF it even needs modifying other than new springs and a dropped axle. Have you driven a nicely prepared stock framed and suspension design 46ish Ford? They drive DAMN NICE. There is NO REASON to change it all out to IFS or anything else IF the properly setup stock design meets your expectations and you don't even know if it does.

Do a search on this forum and you will see many of these discussions, you are not alone and you are not being singled out or talked "down to" or anything like that. This is reality that is all it is.

Brian
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Old 08-23-2011, 08:30 AM
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You know one of the best things I ever did in my life was the day I discovered it is best to WANT to find what is wrong with my ideas than ONLY wanting to find what is correct with them. If you WANT to only find what is correct that is ALL you will see, even if it is only a little speck of correct. If you don't WANT to find what is wrong, believe me, you won't.

You need to find what you are wrong about in life and in a project such as this. You do this of course BEFORE you proceed. Once you have done it (like marrying) you need to FORGET about what is wrong and be blind to it. But before you commit, you NEED to WANT to see what is wrong.

Brian
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Old 08-23-2011, 09:59 AM
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Wow! I am looking at this from a different perspective, Deuce just contributed an hour of his life showing the differences in the job, pros and cons, Brian has told you of his past mistakes, you just got a boatload of info, for free. Take this as encouragement for your project, not as disparaging remarks. I have a friend that built street rod chassis's for 10-15 years before he had to give it up, can't weld and wear a pace maker without some danger. He told me the toughest he had to build was attaching a trans am clip to a 56 ford pickup. Swore he would never do that again, I helped him out a little, it took him 3 days to get it right with a frame machine to use as a jig. A stock frame is a cool looking frame, check mine out in my journal. Mustang 2 rack, 8 inch rear, it goes down the road as well as my wife's Camry, deceiving how well it handles. Now go to another website and see what kind of response you get, these guys are some of the best on this site an this is, IMO, the best site on the net. A buddy of mine wanted to use a stock Dakota frame for a 41 Plymouth Sedan delivery, I pointed out half the hurdles that Deuce pointed out, he immediately forgot about it. In some ways I could see a guy doing this swap if he were to find a rollover late model truck, using all the wiring, computer, etc but it wouldn't be my cup of tea. Good luck on the project, hang in there and most of all, keep us posted, we all like to learn. Dan
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