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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2013, 01:08 PM
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Just an update and twist to the story. Besides being a bonehead that had no business working on any engine it turns out the previous owner was not just a liar but a very devious one to boot. I caught that the 'receipts' he provided with the car were forged, fake, totally made up. He even had an actual car repair shop allow him to use their letterhead and make up all the performance parts purchases. No kidding!

I mean for crying out loud, there is fudging a bit and talking sh~t when selling a car but this is a whole new level IMO. To actually go through that much trouble/bother to cheat someone and a real business risking their name too. THE THINGS SOME PEOPLE DO! Sad and pathetic.

So at this point there is nothing at all I trust or believe without laying my eyes on myself. So the plan is to pull the entire engine out, send the shortblock to my machinist to get all tolerances and specs verified as well as the balance and replace all the bearings. If it is within tolerances and nice and new inside as it is supposed to then great. If not then I will just replace the entire shortblock with a nice dart block or something like that.

After that the plan is:

1. Dump these heads. Replace with all new performance heads as well as valvetrain. Leaning towards aluminum and either Edelbrock or AFR. Also replace ARP studs too. I haven't settled on any specific head yet but am trying to match up the heads with the valve train that I want.

2. Replace the whole valvetrain (solid roller) - which would work with the head purchase. Strict attention to the springs and already proven combo (I have no need to experiment or reinvent the wheel). To a degree that is. Some spec/combination and then await a couple builders A-OK on the plan. Camshaft spec all part of it as well. Leaning towards a COMP or ISKY setup but not solid numbers on that as of yet.

3. Ignition - the 6AL and MSD billet dist in there now I am going to toss. I may reuse the billet dist if it comes into spec but the trade off of time vs money is in play. I plan on either a MSD 7AL setup and/or the new PwerGrid system by MSD which also has a nice two stage mod that I like. Def will setup for retard under boost (which it hasn't got now)

4. Fuel system - this needs several basic fixes like the pump below the sump (seriously), and sump also turned to the back (no kidding, it is sideways right now). The two 750's I have check if they are even referenced for the blower. I may just pull off and replace with some new 950's that are the holley HP supercharge ones. Again, may be easier timewise in the long run to just pull them out. Will also need to closely inspect the blower that it is all in spec.

Other misc things too of course and to apply things on the shelf (like a nice new meziere hp water pump, preoiler, better cooling layout, etc.

The car itself will also be getting an entire new dash and electronics package (standalone cluster probably, I like the new LCD Autometer pack that was just released for nascar, very nice) and fixing some other things like window alignment/scratches, battery shutoff wiring (all F'd up), and so forth. N2O is possibility but only because of getting a sponsor 'deal'.

And then of course a complete new custom paint job to top it off. Just have to decide on color system and what, if any, airbrushing to incorporate.

So I knew it was a project and that was the desire at the time. I just did not realize that the project would require THIS much re-working to include the entire engine almost. Right now it is looking like about an extra $15K than first prep'd for budget-wise and then another 5-10 for paint.

The biggest issue right now is the combo selection on cam/valvetrain/heads. I will be sitting down with a couple experienced engine builders and then will combine my wants/needs with their advice as well as any from the forums that come from experienced folks there too. IOW - I do value input from the experienced people here and consider the forum a valuable asset for sure.

One main goal is to limit those parts on the shelf or floor that were a bad decision or had to be replaced 6 months later. I'm sure many know what I mean there, lol. So far in the last years and performance builds good planning early on saved a lot of that.

Whew, sorry for the long post. If it gets read (I know I don't like long posts either). Any input at all on heads/cam/valvetrain that are personal favorites are much appreciated and help in the decision process.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2013, 01:59 PM
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Curious if you confronted the seller or the shop involved and what they had to say for themselves.

You called it right...pathetic!
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2013, 02:06 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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What are your goals performance wise? Is this supposed to break 1,000hp, or is it all just for show, or something else?

Since you used to do high hp turbo inline 6's I'm presuming this is more for show than speed?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2013, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
What are your goals performance wise? Is this supposed to break 1,000hp, or is it all just for show, or something else?

Since you used to do high hp turbo inline 6's I'm presuming this is more for show than speed?
Well no, I wouldn't put this amount nor those performance goals in for just "show". I build to be able to sustain real WOT and not just sitting. I still do V6 turbo applications too. Not sure why you presume that V6 turbocharged applications are somehow not speed or show only. There are many turbo V6 applications that are quite fast IMO (7's and 8's to me is pretty fast).
Anyway, getting off topic. I prefer to do both, show AND go on any build. Speed and performance is the actual goal but it is nice to do it with good looks and top quality (and able to meet all NHRA reg's also, hence the lean towards strip only builds).

I don't believe it is all about HP. There are lots of other parameters and things to measure success with. Times being one major one. Anyway, pretty basic stuff really. It is more the journey that I enjoy than the destination. LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by 68NovaSS View Post
Curious if you confronted the seller or the shop involved and what they had to say for themselves.

You called it right...pathetic!
I confronted yes. They both (the shop owner as well as seller) backpeddled and just lied some more. Their main defense was to refuse to answer. I have some other options that are still being considered
People that do this sort of crap usually always get their due.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2013, 02:51 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Originally Posted by Byronski View Post
Well no, I wouldn't put this amount nor those performance goals in for just "show". I build to be able to sustain real WOT and not just sitting. I still do V6 turbo applications too. Not sure why you presume that V6 turbocharged applications are somehow not speed or show only. There are many turbo V6 applications that are quite fast IMO (7's and 8's to me is pretty fast).
Anyway, getting off topic. I prefer to do both, show AND go on any build. Speed and performance is the actual goal but it is nice to do it with good looks and top quality (and able to meet all NHRA reg's also, hence the lean towards strip only builds).

I don't believe it is all about HP. There are lots of other parameters and things to measure success with. Times being one major one. Anyway, pretty basic stuff really. It is more the journey that I enjoy than the destination. LOL



I confronted yes. They both (the shop owner as well as seller) backpeddled and just lied some more. Their main defense was to refuse to answer. I have some other options that are still being considered
People that do this sort of crap usually always get their due.

I didn't mean that turbo 6's were low power- quite the opposite. I figured you had enough of the high hp track builds and just wanted the classic looks, sounds, and smells. Most high hp builds today do not start with an 8-71.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 09-26-2013, 11:33 AM
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Gets worse. Tranny was said to be "built" with hardened shaft, billet pump, antiballoon plates on converter, etc. Turns out bone stock smallest powerglide and stock Chrysler converter. So $3000 has everything back in order for the transmission by a great race tranny shop (1600hp input shaft, billetpump, 7 clutchpack, 1.80 straight gears, transbrake and then converter properly setup and set at 4200 stall).

Shortblock at machine shop. SFi flex plate and balancer junk now too since prev owner welded on them (eliminating the SFi rating) to balance instead of the crank. So getting all that taken care of.

Went with aeromotive fuel cell with A1000 in tank pump and going to put in hardline and also return line system.

Leaning towards AFR heads, perhaps their 345 aluminum ones. Lunati cam setup but not decided on specs yet. Then whatever matches up the AFRs best for rockers and pushrods.

Anyway, that's the scoop now. Only other thing to add to list is change out the 4.88 rear end since that won't serve my needs (1/4). Not sure which to go with on rear end. Any suggestions on a 871 blower on 496 with 32" rear tires? 1/4mi mostly but some street (on random occasions).
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2013, 12:07 AM
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32 inch tire at 7200 RPM with 4.88s nets 140 mph,thats a nine second car.If the car is light then 4.56 gears would net 150 mph.
how fast is this car?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2013, 06:35 AM
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After reading this all I can say is Wow the guy you bought that from sounds like a real sob

I've been very lucky through the years buying high quality builds from others, it's always a gamble but when you get it right you can save an easy 50-75K. My #1 rule is I only move forward after I'm 100% comfortable with the previous owner (and the documentation he can provide), and I have walked away from many amazing vehicles when I wasn't comfortable.

In your case I would say there was obvious valve train trouble after that motor was built and they did what they had to do to make it run again. There appears to be 3 different rockers used on that one side. The middle two Rockers are a different color gold compared to the other 4 gold rockers, and then there are the 2 blue ones. Also there are marks and scratches on some of the Rockers, (the other side all appear to be the same)

You obviously know what your doing so all I can add is I have a Solid Roller 502 Gen VI with a 871 Dual Quad set up and I run 20w50 and although the previous owner ran it on 93 I only run it on C12. Also I would obviously run a girdle set up if your sticking with a Solid Roller & 871
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2013, 01:19 PM
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Thanks Rob.
Yes I agree but one doesn't expect the level of deceit to jin up fake receipts on internals. At least I didn't. He is indeed a real lowlife. Being an complete moron on engine building is not a sufficient excuse. The deceit was planned and purposeful. I have placed a viking curse on him.

Vinne, I don't place a lot of faith in the math calc for how fast a car is in the 1/4 based on just gearing and rpm. I have a V6 turbo vehicle that has 1000 to the wheels and needs to break over 150 to get into the 9s and is built to exceed 170. Of course much is the driver too. I don't profess to be very good compared to some others. But I've seen a lot of different time ranges with similar setups so there are just too many other factors to place a lot of faith in just calculating.

I had not planned on going that high rpm on a stroked motor. In the past going higher has handed me a spun rod bearing at the least. I think with the combination of the stroker with the blower a lower redline is indicated. Just my initial plan for now. So the 4.88 rear seemed to maybe not be the best choice was my thinking (I could be wrong).
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Old 09-27-2013, 07:16 PM
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I'm a switch hitter and also have a Pro Street Ranger I use for fun on the Street & Strip. I run a 4.88 gear with a 28x11.5 Slick and finish the run at over 8,000 RPM with a 10.61 ET @ 126 MPH
It's a 418 cu in 351W and also a Solid Roller & Girdle Set Up. The high RPM's have me a little concerned for longevity of the motor and I'm convinced it's slowing me down a bit. I'm going to try a 29 or 30" slick soon and hope to run 10.3's
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2013, 07:59 PM
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""I don't place a lot of faith in the math calc for how fast a car is in the 1/4 based on just gearing and rpm. I have a V6 turbo vehicle that has 1000 to the wheels and needs to break over 150 to get into the 9s ""

what are your 60' times with this car?
MPH is an indication of horse power.
your car is either spinning the tires a lot,or the turbo takes a long time to spool up?
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:16 PM
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It is awd on 4 wrinklewall slicks. Not spinning. Haven't launched it over 6 psi (full out is 35PSI on a GTX42 turbo on Q16) as of yet. I also don't have time to go to the track every weekend. So, slow to dial it in. Anyway, I feel we are getting off topic. That's a totally different car.

I don't think one can always match HP to MPH. If you take two cars with exactly the same HP but other differences and drivers there can be a huge difference. So many factors as we all know at the track right? Heck I've done a 10.9 with trap speed of 140 before trying to dial things in.

Using the math to dial in a range or to help guide I am all for but it isn't exact. For me 4.88 takes me into too high of RPM versus the top MPH. Perhaps I am used to the other car at a much higher top speed (186MPH @ 7000RPM) but it is also is a 6 speed manual.

I just initially figured that with this blown 496 and stripped down Camaro that a rear ratio goal should be one that takes me a lot higher than 140ishMPH at over 7000rpm. So I am considering changing that out to something else. Was just wondering what others were using and how they liked their choice/setups. Same with similar camming setups and what people here like/dislike.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2013, 08:25 PM
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Quarter mile speed to HP calculators are only accurate if the MPH is truly representative of what the vehicle will run in the quarter mile, WOT, w/an optimized setup. If there are severe traction problems, the engine is over or under revved, shift points wrong, isn't run at WOT, or if any number of other things are either done wrong or are not correct, the calculator cannot give a decent estimate. But when used the way they were designed to be used, they're as accurate as you're going to get short of a dynamometer.
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:45 PM
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""Mild is boring. No fun staying mild right? Which is why the blower w/n2o on top of the stroker.""
"Using the math to dial in a range or to help guide I am all for but it isn't exact. For me 4.88 takes me into too high of RPM"

sorry,I'm getting confused,lol.
7200 RPM is not that high,,,,

just trying to help,but,,,I'm having a little trouble following you.
you said mild is boring,I think an 850 horse power 500 inch rat that revs to 6500 rpm as mild.
If you make over 1,000 to the wheels(2 horse power per cubic inch)
the engine will likely rev past 7,000
If you use a power glide transmission,you will likely have a stall speed around 5k
with a 5k race converter capable of working with a 1200 hp rat in front of it,you will likely run the traps around 7200 rpm.

If you build a "race" engine,you will likely rev 7500
please help me to understand?
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:46 PM
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Sorry I am confusing you. My mistake in not being clear perhaps.

I thought that due to being stroked the redline should be kept down some. I know this has been the case with other strokers. If not the case on a stroked BB then my mistake. This is the first stroked BBC I have had. I am not wanting mild but neither am I wanting an annual rebuild either. Based on that I figured 6500-7 and therefore staying at or under 7K. Again, was basing this on keeping stoked motor not over 7 and maybe a little less. My experience last time in taking a stroked engine up to 8000 was costly. That's all I meant by too high (ie - over 7). I hope that makes sense.

The transmission place set the new converter at 4500. The new trans and converter will be arriving next week. So that's all out of the way. A-1 Race Transmission down in Vancouver. Very nice people and did fast turn around too. Taking all things into consideration the builder suggested 4500 as a good stall speed which will still allow nice idle and drive characteristics. I agreed and will try it at that for now.

Meeting with machine shop and engine build next week to decide on heads and valve train. I just wanted to hear some other people's setups or comments that they have done with similar engine layouts. As in what heads they liked best (and why), what cam/s they have chosen and why. Stuff like that from actual users is nice to know prior to meeting the machinist and tuning/dyno shop to make final decision.
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