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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 08-07-2013, 04:02 AM
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The spark plug looks too hot for a serious blower motor
and is likely the wrong type and reach for that cylinder head.
Althou that 290 casting is a odd ball and came factory with both spark plug reaches
most of them are the tapered seat 5/8" hex with a short .460" reach.
Check you heads. 1970 was the cross over production year.

that plug is essentually for a stock motor, ok for idling and driving around
but is too hot for extended WOT especially supercharged.
You want a cooler heat range spark plug for supercharged power.

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Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 08-07-2013 at 04:26 AM.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2013, 10:49 AM
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OK, so it seems that the previous owner was not only a bonehead but also quite dishonest about many things. So each week it seems I go backwards further to get this engine and car in order. The builder he supposedly used is no where to be found (non existent) and there are many things not adding up.

So starting with the rockers. They are all misadjusted (and he ran them that way) but they have all different adjusting nuts on them. Seriously. See pics below.

Can anyone think of any possible reason why the heck any normal or sane person would use all different adjusting nuts like this?





So besides having to get the mismatched cam outah there it seems the entire valvetrain is questionable. With the different date rockers and two oddball blue ones.

Plus the rockers themselves are a bit beat up underneath too. No visible reason for that either. Not on any of the business end of things, that looks okay (so far) but the bodies are not in greatest shape.

Sigh. If only I had an idea WHY someone would possibly do something like this. I didn't want to tear it all off and scrap it but trying to figure it out is getting to be worse as I keep digging.

Why do people do this sort of thing? (yes, I know, lots of tongue in cheek answers to this one!!)
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2013, 11:24 AM
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Just a wild theory...

That short poly-lock might be right under the oil filler cap / baffle?

The rest of them are super long ... would that be for use with a stud girdle or something?

In any case ... yeah, I'd be tossing the whole mess into the garbage can and starting over with a good set of roller rockers. I'm looking at a set of low-profile Comp ARC Gold #19021-16 myself ... which they say will fit under a stock-height valve-cover.


Regarding Spark Plugs ... yeah, you need to be careful there.
5/8" or 13/16" hex size, gasketed or tapered, 1/2" or 3/4" reach are all options in that 1969 - 70 396 / 402 CID cylinder head.

The heads that I just picked up are 3931063 (1968/69 396) and used the

NGK #2851 (GR5) with the 13/16 and 3/4" reach

Last edited by 66GMC; 08-19-2013 at 11:46 AM.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2013, 12:30 PM
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I don't like the looks of those valve springs. They don;t look like a race roller valve spring to me.
"set Up for Pro Street" This typically means the engine is not set up at all and may have numerous mismatched components,like a race roller cam and only dual valve springs good enough for a flat tappet cam.
Do not assume anything about that motor is correct.
Roller rockers don't last forever. I like Scorpion roller rockers. (Howards)
If those Crane Gold race are in good shape, they are fine. (They are a dam good rocker too) If the bearings are sloppy or rough now, replace.
All roller bearings (lifters and rockers) require periodic routine hand inspection
and replacement or rebuild as required. On a race roller valve train.

The big Howards cam (if that is in fact the cam in the motor) is a big race blower cam
and is probabily a lot more than what you will like if you will be primarily street driving it.
But it will make a ton of power at the track.
But irrreguardless it needs the right valve springs. An I would check Valve to piston clearance
before reving this motor up. Assume that everything was done wrong and or not checked.

Re set the valve lash COLD @ about -.004" to -.006" less than the cam card spec.
Assuming that is the cam in the motor. (measure the valve lift)
It would be real nice and real smart to remove the intake and hand inspect all the roller lifters
for bearing wear. You want to catch anything that is going south before it leaves.
If the roller bearings are not pristine rebuild or replace.
You can assume the roller lifters lived a hard life. (probabily incorrect valves springs and obvious mis adjusted valve lash) most people set the lash too loose anyway as a rule.

Answer cause they broke a rocker stud and replaced it with a short one.
if this was my motor, with what I'm seeing there I would inspect the whole top end.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 08-19-2013 at 12:45 PM.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2013, 12:46 PM
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Before you take it apart for inspection do a simple compression test on it.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2013, 12:56 PM
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Yeah, was going to compression test before taking much further apart. At this point it is worse not knowing what specs to trust or not. He provided receipts and photos of the bottom end but who knows at this point. This is worse than starting with nothing on the top.

I had planned on replacing the cam for sure. And perhaps the only way to know whats-what is to replace it all. A very unplanned for added expense.

What I am in the process of trying to do now is know or verify what I see is totally whack and possible solutions other than just pull and replace. It becomes a slippery slope (as we all know) at replace this, then might as well do that too, and while we are at it, get these new,,,,and so on. LOL.

I have to pull the intake anyway too. It has so many coolant leaks it is not funny. At least 3 places on the outside and one on the inside. It truly was assembled by a person that hadn't a clue.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2013, 12:08 PM
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Just an update and twist to the story. Besides being a bonehead that had no business working on any engine it turns out the previous owner was not just a liar but a very devious one to boot. I caught that the 'receipts' he provided with the car were forged, fake, totally made up. He even had an actual car repair shop allow him to use their letterhead and make up all the performance parts purchases. No kidding!

I mean for crying out loud, there is fudging a bit and talking sh~t when selling a car but this is a whole new level IMO. To actually go through that much trouble/bother to cheat someone and a real business risking their name too. THE THINGS SOME PEOPLE DO! Sad and pathetic.

So at this point there is nothing at all I trust or believe without laying my eyes on myself. So the plan is to pull the entire engine out, send the shortblock to my machinist to get all tolerances and specs verified as well as the balance and replace all the bearings. If it is within tolerances and nice and new inside as it is supposed to then great. If not then I will just replace the entire shortblock with a nice dart block or something like that.

After that the plan is:

1. Dump these heads. Replace with all new performance heads as well as valvetrain. Leaning towards aluminum and either Edelbrock or AFR. Also replace ARP studs too. I haven't settled on any specific head yet but am trying to match up the heads with the valve train that I want.

2. Replace the whole valvetrain (solid roller) - which would work with the head purchase. Strict attention to the springs and already proven combo (I have no need to experiment or reinvent the wheel). To a degree that is. Some spec/combination and then await a couple builders A-OK on the plan. Camshaft spec all part of it as well. Leaning towards a COMP or ISKY setup but not solid numbers on that as of yet.

3. Ignition - the 6AL and MSD billet dist in there now I am going to toss. I may reuse the billet dist if it comes into spec but the trade off of time vs money is in play. I plan on either a MSD 7AL setup and/or the new PwerGrid system by MSD which also has a nice two stage mod that I like. Def will setup for retard under boost (which it hasn't got now)

4. Fuel system - this needs several basic fixes like the pump below the sump (seriously), and sump also turned to the back (no kidding, it is sideways right now). The two 750's I have check if they are even referenced for the blower. I may just pull off and replace with some new 950's that are the holley HP supercharge ones. Again, may be easier timewise in the long run to just pull them out. Will also need to closely inspect the blower that it is all in spec.

Other misc things too of course and to apply things on the shelf (like a nice new meziere hp water pump, preoiler, better cooling layout, etc.

The car itself will also be getting an entire new dash and electronics package (standalone cluster probably, I like the new LCD Autometer pack that was just released for nascar, very nice) and fixing some other things like window alignment/scratches, battery shutoff wiring (all F'd up), and so forth. N2O is possibility but only because of getting a sponsor 'deal'.

And then of course a complete new custom paint job to top it off. Just have to decide on color system and what, if any, airbrushing to incorporate.

So I knew it was a project and that was the desire at the time. I just did not realize that the project would require THIS much re-working to include the entire engine almost. Right now it is looking like about an extra $15K than first prep'd for budget-wise and then another 5-10 for paint.

The biggest issue right now is the combo selection on cam/valvetrain/heads. I will be sitting down with a couple experienced engine builders and then will combine my wants/needs with their advice as well as any from the forums that come from experienced folks there too. IOW - I do value input from the experienced people here and consider the forum a valuable asset for sure.

One main goal is to limit those parts on the shelf or floor that were a bad decision or had to be replaced 6 months later. I'm sure many know what I mean there, lol. So far in the last years and performance builds good planning early on saved a lot of that.

Whew, sorry for the long post. If it gets read (I know I don't like long posts either). Any input at all on heads/cam/valvetrain that are personal favorites are much appreciated and help in the decision process.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2013, 12:59 PM
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Curious if you confronted the seller or the shop involved and what they had to say for themselves.

You called it right...pathetic!
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2013, 01:06 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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What are your goals performance wise? Is this supposed to break 1,000hp, or is it all just for show, or something else?

Since you used to do high hp turbo inline 6's I'm presuming this is more for show than speed?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2013, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
What are your goals performance wise? Is this supposed to break 1,000hp, or is it all just for show, or something else?

Since you used to do high hp turbo inline 6's I'm presuming this is more for show than speed?
Well no, I wouldn't put this amount nor those performance goals in for just "show". I build to be able to sustain real WOT and not just sitting. I still do V6 turbo applications too. Not sure why you presume that V6 turbocharged applications are somehow not speed or show only. There are many turbo V6 applications that are quite fast IMO (7's and 8's to me is pretty fast).
Anyway, getting off topic. I prefer to do both, show AND go on any build. Speed and performance is the actual goal but it is nice to do it with good looks and top quality (and able to meet all NHRA reg's also, hence the lean towards strip only builds).

I don't believe it is all about HP. There are lots of other parameters and things to measure success with. Times being one major one. Anyway, pretty basic stuff really. It is more the journey that I enjoy than the destination. LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by 68NovaSS View Post
Curious if you confronted the seller or the shop involved and what they had to say for themselves.

You called it right...pathetic!
I confronted yes. They both (the shop owner as well as seller) backpeddled and just lied some more. Their main defense was to refuse to answer. I have some other options that are still being considered
People that do this sort of crap usually always get their due.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2013, 01:51 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byronski View Post
Well no, I wouldn't put this amount nor those performance goals in for just "show". I build to be able to sustain real WOT and not just sitting. I still do V6 turbo applications too. Not sure why you presume that V6 turbocharged applications are somehow not speed or show only. There are many turbo V6 applications that are quite fast IMO (7's and 8's to me is pretty fast).
Anyway, getting off topic. I prefer to do both, show AND go on any build. Speed and performance is the actual goal but it is nice to do it with good looks and top quality (and able to meet all NHRA reg's also, hence the lean towards strip only builds).

I don't believe it is all about HP. There are lots of other parameters and things to measure success with. Times being one major one. Anyway, pretty basic stuff really. It is more the journey that I enjoy than the destination. LOL



I confronted yes. They both (the shop owner as well as seller) backpeddled and just lied some more. Their main defense was to refuse to answer. I have some other options that are still being considered
People that do this sort of crap usually always get their due.

I didn't mean that turbo 6's were low power- quite the opposite. I figured you had enough of the high hp track builds and just wanted the classic looks, sounds, and smells. Most high hp builds today do not start with an 8-71.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 09-26-2013, 10:33 AM
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Gets worse. Tranny was said to be "built" with hardened shaft, billet pump, antiballoon plates on converter, etc. Turns out bone stock smallest powerglide and stock Chrysler converter. So $3000 has everything back in order for the transmission by a great race tranny shop (1600hp input shaft, billetpump, 7 clutchpack, 1.80 straight gears, transbrake and then converter properly setup and set at 4200 stall).

Shortblock at machine shop. SFi flex plate and balancer junk now too since prev owner welded on them (eliminating the SFi rating) to balance instead of the crank. So getting all that taken care of.

Went with aeromotive fuel cell with A1000 in tank pump and going to put in hardline and also return line system.

Leaning towards AFR heads, perhaps their 345 aluminum ones. Lunati cam setup but not decided on specs yet. Then whatever matches up the AFRs best for rockers and pushrods.

Anyway, that's the scoop now. Only other thing to add to list is change out the 4.88 rear end since that won't serve my needs (1/4). Not sure which to go with on rear end. Any suggestions on a 871 blower on 496 with 32" rear tires? 1/4mi mostly but some street (on random occasions).
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-26-2013, 11:07 PM
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32 inch tire at 7200 RPM with 4.88s nets 140 mph,thats a nine second car.If the car is light then 4.56 gears would net 150 mph.
how fast is this car?
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2013, 05:35 AM
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After reading this all I can say is Wow the guy you bought that from sounds like a real sob

I've been very lucky through the years buying high quality builds from others, it's always a gamble but when you get it right you can save an easy 50-75K. My #1 rule is I only move forward after I'm 100% comfortable with the previous owner (and the documentation he can provide), and I have walked away from many amazing vehicles when I wasn't comfortable.

In your case I would say there was obvious valve train trouble after that motor was built and they did what they had to do to make it run again. There appears to be 3 different rockers used on that one side. The middle two Rockers are a different color gold compared to the other 4 gold rockers, and then there are the 2 blue ones. Also there are marks and scratches on some of the Rockers, (the other side all appear to be the same)

You obviously know what your doing so all I can add is I have a Solid Roller 502 Gen VI with a 871 Dual Quad set up and I run 20w50 and although the previous owner ran it on 93 I only run it on C12. Also I would obviously run a girdle set up if your sticking with a Solid Roller & 871
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 09-27-2013, 12:19 PM
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Thanks Rob.
Yes I agree but one doesn't expect the level of deceit to jin up fake receipts on internals. At least I didn't. He is indeed a real lowlife. Being an complete moron on engine building is not a sufficient excuse. The deceit was planned and purposeful. I have placed a viking curse on him.

Vinne, I don't place a lot of faith in the math calc for how fast a car is in the 1/4 based on just gearing and rpm. I have a V6 turbo vehicle that has 1000 to the wheels and needs to break over 150 to get into the 9s and is built to exceed 170. Of course much is the driver too. I don't profess to be very good compared to some others. But I've seen a lot of different time ranges with similar setups so there are just too many other factors to place a lot of faith in just calculating.

I had not planned on going that high rpm on a stroked motor. In the past going higher has handed me a spun rod bearing at the least. I think with the combination of the stroker with the blower a lower redline is indicated. Just my initial plan for now. So the 4.88 rear seemed to maybe not be the best choice was my thinking (I could be wrong).
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