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-   -   4L60E 3-4 clutch pack clearance question (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/4l60e-3-4-clutch-pack-clearance-question-228081.html)

Peepaw 01-07-2013 09:27 AM

4L60E 3-4 clutch pack clearance question
 
Hey guys, quick question. Doing a 4L60E rebuild, and everything is going good until I checked clearance on the 3-4 clutch.
The ATSG manual says it should be .060-.085".
When I got this one together, it came up as .045". According to ATSG manual, it's too tight. However, I put OLD clutches/steels back in, just as a comparison, and came up with .060" and the clutches were WORN out. Going by that, and assume the clutches were a wee bit thicker when new, figure it was setup probably around .040-.045". Going by that, those numbers don't add up.

So, hopped on internet, came across a few forums, and I have seen anywhere from .010" up to .075". Obviously, a BIG difference.

So, figured I would ask you guys and see what you all had to say.

Also, this is a factory 6 clutch pack out of a late 99/early 00 LS1 Camaro (build date of may 99).

And while we are at it, the ATSG also says, in order, after the forward clutch backing plate retainer ring:
3rd and 4th clutch ring retainer plate (with the legs that drop down)
3rd and 4th clutch apply (stepped) plate
3rd and 4th clutch plate (steel)
then of course fiber, steel, fiber steel, etc..
3rd and 4th clutch selective backing plate
3rd and 4th clutch backing plate retainer ring

OK, so if you go by the above, this trans is TOTALLY different.
It didn't have the "stepped" apply plate, and it didn't start with a steel. How this trans came apart, after the forward clutch backing plate retainer ring was the following:

3rd and 4th clutch ring retainer plate (has the legs that drop down on it)
clutch
steel
clutch
etc...for a total of 6 clutches, 5 steel (plus the 1 retainer plate on bottom, and the1 backing selective plate up top)

So, you can see my concern. ATSG manual is giving me a different setup than what I have, so Im now concerned over my clearances on not only the 3-4 clutch pack, but EVERYTHING else now as well (even though up to this point, all my clearance came out to what ATSG said they should be).

OK guys, thanks for the help.

rick 427 01-07-2013 12:55 PM

The ATSG is giving the set up for the 4L60 ,not the E... On the E trans,the 2 part thin retainer plate[with legs down] and the stepped plate used on the 4L60 was replaced with the 1 piece thick plate [with the legs down],then clutch,steel,clutch,etc..... Put your new set-up together with WET clutches,air check it a few times to seat everything,and check the clearance. If you're in the .030-.060 range,you're good.

Peepaw 01-08-2013 09:33 AM

OK great, thanks for reply. The ATSG manual, on the cover, says 4L60E, and inside says was updated Aug '03, so not sure why it doesn't give correct info. Oh well. Thanks for reply, and getting me back on track.

Peepaw 01-09-2013 08:15 AM

Hey guys, while we are here, I guess I do have another question. I have just recently started getting into rebuilding auto's (I specialize in manual trans rebuilds/performance upgrades to trans like the T56, TKO 500/600's, etc..).

This 4L60E didn't want to go into 3rd gear, and when it did it would slip real bad. Clutches on the 3/4 clutch pack were worn out.

Anything in particular that would've caused that? Any known problems with that 3/4 clutch pack? I upgraded with the Alto red's, changed out the spring in oil pump (bought the shift improvement kit for oil pump/valvebody), , springs in accumulator, etc...

Anything I should be looking for before I get trans ALL the way back together and in car? Thanks again guys

Peepaw 01-10-2013 07:42 AM

Bueller, Bueller? :mwink:

rick 427 01-10-2013 08:57 AM

I assume you put in the new molded pistons in the drum,and you stated the old clutches were just worn out....and it air checks good....then button it up.I don't know if you plan on changing any solenoids in the trans,but I highly suggest you put in a new EPC,or variable force solenoid,as some call it, at least...it will save you a lot of headaches down the road. And the manifold pressure switch,[the one located just above the filter],make sure all the round screens on it are there and clean before you bolt it on the VB.

dogwater 01-11-2013 06:16 AM

New sun shell? New bushing in the pump,reverse input drum & the one that goes in the tail shaft housing?

Peepaw 01-11-2013 09:26 PM

Yeah I did all the bushings and thrust bearings. No new sun shell, no. Did the input drum. Basically the 3/4 clutches and steels were wiped out, and the band and drum were toast. It appears to have been short lived, because as bad as the clutches were (and they were bad!) the fluid and everything was actually fairly decent.

Peepaw 01-14-2013 07:37 AM

Well, Trans is back in car, and so far so good. Shifts a little softer than I hadf thought it would to be honest. I had picked up the "shift improvement kit", did all the necessary stuff:
Drilled a .073 hole in the pressure reg valve in oil pump
Replaced outer press reg spring
Replaced the converter control switch valve, and new springs
Replaced forward clutch accumulator spring
Replaced 4-3 return spring
Ground 1/8" off piston retainer seat
Replaced servo cushion spring
Installed steel orfice plug in 3-4 accumulator bore
Changed out springs in the 1-2 accumulator
Drilled out separator plate in all the places mentioned (8 places in all)
Left out the #6 check valve in valve body
Turned adjustment screw on force motor 1/4 turn
Also, I DID leave out the load release springs as well. Some say leave em in, most say leave em out. I left them out.

ON light throttle, shifts are hardly even noticeable. I mean, you know they take place, but very wimpy like if you ask me (basically shifts just like a stock trans does) However, you get in the throttle some, around half throttle, and shifts clean up some and are much more firm. We haven't done any full throttle blasts yet (been raining here) so, guess we will see.
Trans works, and all of that, and Im happy with that of course, but thought with all the "improvements" in trying to firm up the shifts, it would've shifted much more firm and crisp.

Any idea's, or is what I am explaining pretty typical of the 4l60e?

Peepaw 01-14-2013 07:41 AM

Also, I did reuse the stock plastic 1-2 acc. I know it can crack, but didn't know that until trans was almost together, and was trying to get trans back in car for customer.
Does that 1-2 accumulator have a REAL bad rep? Or, will it survive?

rick 427 01-14-2013 11:41 AM

Remember...street application trans reprogramming kits are not designed for firm or crisp shifts...hard shifts on street cars are not good for the whole driveline.....these kits are made to reduce overlap between shifts, and to make upgrades in areas that makes the trans more durable,which will give you a 'positive' shift,meaning you know when it changes gears...Yes,there is a difference between a 'positive',and a 'firm' shift...if you got that,then everything is right....Factory transmissions are designed for smoothness[slight overlap between shifts] so the happy new car buyer can't even feel them shift,in turn,giving them the smooth ride they want and expect,but in many cases,to their surprise,a shorter trans life.I cant tell you how many customers came back to me asking me why,after a rebuild, they can now ''feel'' the trans shifting,where before they didn't. I tell them this same scenerio. Hope this helps.

Peepaw 01-14-2013 01:53 PM

Well, I understand the difference in all of that, and what an auto does street/strip. I've been at this for 25+ years, but just got into re-doing auto's.

I was just under the impression, that with this kit, the shifts were gonna be a lot more crisp than what they are.

Again, I'm a manual trans guy, and been doing those for years (currently going after the T56/LS1 ET record) and really haven't messed with many auto's, for the street anyways. I've run some Powerglides in some of my cars, C4's...but for most part, I have been a Tremec, Doug Nash, Jericho manual tranny guy..banging gears.

Peepaw 01-14-2013 01:56 PM

I just wanted to make sure, that the improvements I did, the results we are seeing, are typical.
If you read the kit, and it says, "Heavy duty" spring this, and "heavy duty" spring that, I was expecting a lot more firm of shifts than what we are getting. But, if that is typical with a 4L60E, then Im ok with it.

Thanks for your reply.

rick 427 01-14-2013 05:11 PM

Yes,it's typical....depending on what type of trans you're doing,some kits installed you'll say ''wow,thats sweet'',after a road test,and others,ya wonder why you went thru the trouble installing it.Bottom line tho,they all ''clean up' the shifts at the very least ,and make the trans more durable,even if you don't feel a significant change in shift feel,it still has a better shift quality..it's kinda hard to explain..Welcome to the world of automatics!!

Peepaw 01-15-2013 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick 427 (Post 1633053)
I assume you put in the new molded pistons in the drum,and you stated the old clutches were just worn out....and it air checks good....then button it up.I don't know if you plan on changing any solenoids in the trans,but I highly suggest you put in a new EPC,or variable force solenoid,as some call it, at least...it will save you a lot of headaches down the road. And the manifold pressure switch,[the one located just above the filter],make sure all the round screens on it are there and clean before you bolt it on the VB.

Yes, new pistons. Gonna do electronics later on, as money permits for customer. Sorry, for some reason I did not see your reply sooner. Thanks.
But yes, I took EVERY solenoid out, cleaned it with brake cleaner, soaked with clean ATF, and cleaned them again. Still gonna do new electronics/solenoids later on.


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