4L60e, to rebuild or not rebuild, that is the question ?

Crosley · #16 (**permalink**) 12-17-2010, 06:15 PM

couple of items;

if you are a pro trans builder and it takes you 2-3 days to build any automatic trans.. give it up and no shop will hire you

I never said all DIY trans fail.

CVT trans operate at sky high pressures. They are a failure waiting for a spot to fail IMHO. Still not many parts offered in aftermarket for them that I know of. I do not build them. They will not replace current design automatic trans IMHO.

I own - drive a Diesel powered Jetta with DSG trans (dual clutch, manual, electronic control clutch). When it pukes, the car will go away(sell it). i will not attempt to repair it. i;ve read up on the trans and made that decision.

sparkydog · #17 (**permalink**) 12-17-2010, 06:37 PM

When I first discovered my 4L60E was toast, I briefly contemplated doing a rebuild myself. I found several stories like this one on the internet. Here is just one of them:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/automa...up-photos.html

(HINT: It does not have a happy ending)

old yukon · #18 (**permalink**) 12-17-2010, 08:32 PM

Sorry Crosely, dont get me wrong, I am not saying anyone on the forum said all DIYer tranny builds fail, just that their sucess rates are fairly low.

the 2 to 3 day guestamation of a pro trany build is just ignornat old me guessing, not the fact you guys know better.

Yes it is true that Diyer tranny builders cover the vast range of experience, and we hope you can get that four gear in shape soon Kawabuggy !

Old Yukon

Kawabuggy · #19 (**permalink**) 12-29-2010, 08:53 AM

Just an update for those interested... Still have no 4th. So far I have tried the following:
Pulled servo & verified that all seals are present & not damaged, and that everything was in the correct position. It all checked out fine.

Got another valve body and put it in along with a new separator plate-I DID get a Trans-Go plate this time, and the used valve body I got HAS THE ROUND LINE BIAS VALVE so I had to drill the hole in the Trans-Go plate.

While I had the VB off, I air-checked the servo by applying air to the servo exhaust on the pan rail, and got a little bit of fluid blowing out of the ball capsule. It was just a little burst of fluid, but after that little burst, it seemed to be holding. The band was applying each time I applied the air. What I don't know is if applying air this way applies the 4th servo piston, or the 2nd clutch servo piston.. I do see that the band is applying though.

I swapped the governor for another one that I had here. It looks the same as the first one, and both valves are free inside both governors.

I also put a return spring on the actual TV valve itself inside the valve body as I was told that this will prevent the valve from sticking.

After putting it all back together, I still have no 4th gear. I verified that the shifter is in O/D, and not just "D" (3rd), and I have verified that adjusting the TV cable has no bearing on the situation. I jacked the rear end up off the ground and had my friend running it at 70MPH while I pulled & released the TV cable multiple times but it still did not shift into 4th.

So, I'm going back to the drawing board. I got another 700 that came from a running car that was simply slipping in 3rd & 4th under heavy acceleration. It DID have all gears prior to being pulled (this is what I am being told). Now I'm torn between rebuilding it and leaving it all STOCK inside-no modifications what so ever. This is what my friend that builds them is telling me to do. He said to leave out all shift kits, boost valve, and after-market separator plates. He said I can still use the Beast sunshell, and a good band, all new bushings, & the normal stuff that comes in a basic rebuild kit but NOTHING else. He assures me that if I build it this way it will work.. I'm going to try it to see. That leaves me a complete spare transmission with some unknown problem inside that I can take parts off of. This is getting REALLY costly. At this point, I have over $1200.00 in a core transmission, rebuild kit, performance parts, TV cable bracket, TV cable attachment arm (for carb), fluid, torque converter, shortened drive shaft, relocated cross-member, labor, spare valve body, new separator plate, new VB gaskets, time, time, and more time and still don't have a trans that works properly. Now another 700 ($150), and another rebuild kit, and start the process all over. I won't give up on this project. I will get a trans that works. Hopefully I'll achieve success BEFORE I eclipse that dollar figure that would have allowed me to purchase a 4L60E and stand alone computer...

old yukon · #20 (**permalink**) 12-29-2010, 10:26 AM

Keep it up Kawabuggy hopefully the silver linning is just around the corner.

It seems a common theme that moving away from stock to get that added power and proformace is the cause of many DIY tranny rebuild errors. Thats a nother good lesson.

Old Yukon

Kawabuggy · #21 (**permalink**) 01-06-2011, 03:10 PM

Success Finally! Well, my last update. I finally figured out why I had no 4th. It was not easy though.

I pulled the trans. in anticipation of replacing it. I got the servo out, the lock up solenoid out, the pump, and then pulled the input drum. I had the drum sitting on the table with the stator shaft pointing up. The orientation is key for what I am about to explain.. With the drum sitting that way, a small pool of oil gathered around the stator bearing, where the selective washer sits. I went to air check the 3-4 clutches and the selective washer, stator bearing, and all the oil that was sitting there literally flew up and hit the air nozzle where I had it up against the feed hole in the stator... Hmmmm... What would cause that? I then removed the washer, and bearing, and poured more tranny fluid into that little pocket where the bearing sits, and then lightly applied air pressure to the feed hole again. Bubbles started coming from between the shaft & the drum. Not just a couple, but bubbles all the way around. The more air I applied, the larger and faster the bubbles came.

So, thinking I had found the problem, I called my buddy and told him what I had discovered. He told me that it is NORMAL for the drums to leak a little bit there... Now I'm disheartened again because I thought I had it figured out. He tells me that if the leak was as bad as I thought it was, it would not have 3rd either. Well it did have 3rd, and what he was saying made sense. The 3-4 clutches would apply when air-checking.

I was back to the drawing board. I picked up the servo, and took it apart. I got the 4th piston out of the servo cover and studied it. I was trying to figure out how the fluid got behind that piston to apply the band for 4th. Not seeing any hole inside the servo bore that aligned with the 4th piston, I finally realized that the pin was hollow and that the fluid/pressure was fed from an area lower in the servo bore, then through the pin to the cavity behind the 4th piston. So, I tried blowing air through the hole (the pin is cross-drilled) and everything seemed normal. However, once I put my finger on the other side of the hole and blocked the air from coming out where it was cross-drilled--I had a VOILA! moment! The air would not come out of the end where the piston rides. I called my buddy and he said-Yes, the pin should allow air out the end of it if you are testing it...

I tried shining a light through the pin and watching for light at the other end-NADA! I then straightened a piece of wire and tried to pass it through the pin, and it stopped dead against a blockage. I took a drill bit and ran it down there until I made contact with the blockage and by hand turned the bit to see if I could pull some of it out. Well, I ended up getting a piece of rubber O-ring, what looked like gasket material, and a bunch of crud that resembles dirt, sand, clutch material all boogered together. After getting the blockage out, I cleaned the pin as best I could. After I dried it, I realized that the hole drilled in the pin appeared rusty inside. Apparently at some point this pin rusted inside and maybe the gritty surface allowed some stuff to build up until it formed a blockage.. I have no idea on the history of the trans so for all I know this is not even the original pin for this trans.

Anyway, once I got it all back together, I felt confident that it would work. I re-installed the trans, went for a road test and CHA-CHING! SHAZAM! 4th gear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Boo-Yahh Baby! I'm guessing people beside me on the road were wondering why I was dancing behind the wheel.

What concerns me is--why did the band work when I air-checked it by applying air pressure to the exhaust port on the pan rail? I asked my buddy that builds them and he said he did not know the answer. The band WOULD apply when putting air to the exhaust passage, and yet I had no 4th gear! I did have 2nd though.. Maybe the air check only applies air to the 2nd gear band apply piston..? I'm not sure I fully understand that part of it, but it works, and I'm not arguing about it.

So let's recap-$1475 invested, about 160 hours total labor time (includes pull & install multiple times & over-haul)... Pulled & installed 3 times! What have I learned? Cooler lines are the hardest part about doing this type of work. I can pull this trans in 15 minutes IF THERE WERE NO COOLER LINES. The lines add about 30 minutes. Trying to get them started straight without cross threading them in that tight space is challenging. Trans fluid is hard to get out of your hair, and the smell will stay on your clothes even after washing. Trans fluid (even new) stains everything it touches.

I'm still concerned about that input drum leaking around the stator shaft. Is there supposed to be some type of sealant or something that goes in that position before the stator shaft is pressed in?? I think I'm going to pull the trans out again, and replace the input drum. I'm nervous that the leakage is too much and that 3-4 will slip because of this & burn up. If I can fix this drum by taking it apart and then sealing it better, I will. If there is nothing I can do to stop that leak, I will get another used drum. At least I now know how to bench test them for this before they get installed.

Do you guys that build them expect to see leakage around that shaft? Should I just leave it alone, or is this an issue that needs to be fixed? My buddy that builds them said a little leakage is normal.. How do you define "a little"? What I saw was a LOT.. What can I use to seal the shaft to the drum?

old yukon · #22 (**permalink**) 01-07-2011, 10:03 AM

Rewards for your perseverance !

With regards to the tranny fluid lines i use:
- good lighting
- an extendable mirror,
- a a bit of stainless that i can bend into different points (a strong skewer works great) (see pics below), and the retaining clips are off in 5 -10 minutes.

hope that helps making things faster.

Old Yukon

Kawabuggy · #23 (**permalink**) 01-07-2011, 10:26 AM

Old Yukon, these lines don't have any clips-they are thread in. Trying to hold the lines in the correct position while starting them is almost impossible. The clearance between the body and the trans is so tight that I can barely get my finger-tips up in there, much less hold the line against the tranny, while I use the other hand to start the threads. It is a PAIN. Also, the threaded fittings on the end of the lines WILL NOT turn easily. So they are binding up which makes it even harder to get them to turn to start into the fittings on the trans.

I had to take a 1/2" wrench and cut it down to 3" in length just to be able to get it in there, and then be able to move it around. Needless to say, you can only turn the nuts on the cooler lines about one flat at a time before you have to reposition the wrench. If I could fabricate some type of sub line that would stay attached to the transmission, and then be able to connect those sub lines to the rest of the cooler lines away from the trans-that would be ideal. I will not use any rubber line though as I was told not to.

I was at a point where I thought about cutting a hole in the trans tunnel, removing the passenger seat, and then accessing the lines and the nuts from the top. The only reason I did not do this is because I still would not be able to hold the line in position while I started the nut unless I cut a HUGE section of trans tunnel out so I could reach down in there and grab it..

If I have to keep doing this, I will form some other lines and use those connectors with the crush fittings that will allow attachment of two sections of tube. If there was some type of connector that be put in those lines away from the actual trans connection points it would be smarter, and easier.

I'm open to ideas..

SSedan64 · #24 (**permalink**) 01-08-2011, 05:04 AM

I think I'd invest in some Quick disconnects. Example>> http://www.atiracing.com/products/tr...ranscooler.htm

Kawabuggy · #25 (**permalink**) 01-10-2011, 11:53 AM

Those look really nice. Too bad I've blown my budget getting to this point!

I think with my welder, I can fab something else up that will work the same way, but at a fraction of the cost. When I used to work in the swimming pool industry we sold quick disconnects for PVC up to 2". With that idea in mind, I think I can come with something that will withstand the heat & pressure. Maybe even a fitting that will seal with flares on either end (like the trans fitting) and then have a threaded/flared line end that bolts together away from the exhaust and trans tunnel area. I'm sure something is out there, I'll just have to look around.

Sure is nice driving around town with 4th gear!

lt1silverhawk · #26 (**permalink**) 01-12-2011, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by old yukon

Thanks to Crosley, sparky dog, transbuilderguy, and Kawabuggy for their replies.

It sounds alot like the truth is that a Diyers or Backyard Mechanics has had little if any success on rebuilding the "[B]dreaded 4L60e[/B]", especially for first time tranny builders.

Hay but i maybe wrong.

Maybe someone out there as triumphed over the "dreaded 4L60e" and has lived to tell their tail? or maybe not??

Old Yukon

Here is someone who has indeed "triumphed over the "dreaded 4L60e"" and has lived to tell about it. Check out Impala Girl's very well detailed thread on a 4L60e rebuild.

Studebaker · #27 (**permalink**) 01-28-2011, 06:13 PM

I have rebuilt many transmissions, that being said I leave the newer electronic controlled transmissions to the experts. It is way too costly to have a self induced failure on some of the newer transmissions. I rebuild my own powerglides, t-350, t-400 and mopar 727's with very good success, no failures or problems, but I also frequently consult a written manual. I really like the simplicity of a glide, probably the best auto transmission ever made. Always use good parts and complete kits, not a job you want to do twice!

sparkydog · #28 (**permalink**) 01-28-2011, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kawabuggy

Success Finally!

So let's recap-$1475 invested, about 160 hours total labor time (includes pull & install multiple times & over-haul)... Pulled & installed 3 times! What have I learned?

Sounds like you are ready to open a transmission rebuild business now! You can hang your diploma from the School of Hard Knocks!

Congratulations!

TRANSMAN63 · #29 (**permalink**) 02-06-2011, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kawabuggy

Success Finally! Well, my last update. I finally figured out why I had no 4th. It was not easy though.

I pulled the trans. in anticipation of replacing it. I got the servo out, the lock up solenoid out, the pump, and then pulled the input drum. I had the drum sitting on the table with the stator shaft pointing up. The orientation is key for what I am about to explain.. With the drum sitting that way, a small pool of oil gathered around the stator bearing, where the selective washer sits. I went to air check the 3-4 clutches and the selective washer, stator bearing, and all the oil that was sitting there literally flew up and hit the air nozzle where I had it up against the feed hole in the stator... Hmmmm... What would cause that? I then removed the washer, and bearing, and poured more tranny fluid into that little pocket where the bearing sits, and then lightly applied air pressure to the feed hole again. Bubbles started coming from between the shaft & the drum. Not just a couple, but bubbles all the way around. The more air I applied, the larger and faster the bubbles came.

So, thinking I had found the problem, I called my buddy and told him what I had discovered. He told me that it is NORMAL for the drums to leak a little bit there... Now I'm disheartened again because I thought I had it figured out. He tells me that if the leak was as bad as I thought it was, it would not have 3rd either. Well it did have 3rd, and what he was saying made sense. The 3-4 clutches would apply when air-checking.

I was back to the drawing board. I picked up the servo, and took it apart. I got the 4th piston out of the servo cover and studied it. I was trying to figure out how the fluid got behind that piston to apply the band for 4th. Not seeing any hole inside the servo bore that aligned with the 4th piston, I finally realized that the pin was hollow and that the fluid/pressure was fed from an area lower in the servo bore, then through the pin to the cavity behind the 4th piston. So, I tried blowing air through the hole (the pin is cross-drilled) and everything seemed normal. However, once I put my finger on the other side of the hole and blocked the air from coming out where it was cross-drilled--I had a VOILA! moment! The air would not come out of the end where the piston rides. I called my buddy and he said-Yes, the pin should allow air out the end of it if you are testing it...

I tried shining a light through the pin and watching for light at the other end-NADA! I then straightened a piece of wire and tried to pass it through the pin, and it stopped dead against a blockage. I took a drill bit and ran it down there until I made contact with the blockage and by hand turned the bit to see if I could pull some of it out. Well, I ended up getting a piece of rubber O-ring, what looked like gasket material, and a bunch of crud that resembles dirt, sand, clutch material all boogered together. After getting the blockage out, I cleaned the pin as best I could. After I dried it, I realized that the hole drilled in the pin appeared rusty inside. Apparently at some point this pin rusted inside and maybe the gritty surface allowed some stuff to build up until it formed a blockage.. I have no idea on the history of the trans so for all I know this is not even the original pin for this trans.

Anyway, once I got it all back together, I felt confident that it would work. I re-installed the trans, went for a road test and CHA-CHING! SHAZAM! 4th gear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Boo-Yahh Baby! I'm guessing people beside me on the road were wondering why I was dancing behind the wheel.

What concerns me is--why did the band work when I air-checked it by applying air pressure to the exhaust port on the pan rail? I asked my buddy that builds them and he said he did not know the answer. The band WOULD apply when putting air to the exhaust passage, and yet I had no 4th gear! I did have 2nd though.. Maybe the air check only applies air to the 2nd gear band apply piston..? I'm not sure I fully understand that part of it, but it works, and I'm not arguing about it.
So let's recap-$1475 invested, about 160 hours total labor time (includes pull & install multiple times & over-haul)... Pulled & installed 3 times! What have I learned? Cooler lines are the hardest part about doing this type of work. I can pull this trans in 15 minutes IF THERE WERE NO COOLER LINES. The lines add about 30 minutes. Trying to get them started straight without cross threading them in that tight space is challenging. Trans fluid is hard to get out of your hair, and the smell will stay on your clothes even after washing. Trans fluid (even new) stains everything it touches.

I'm still concerned about that input drum leaking around the stator shaft. Is there supposed to be some type of sealant or something that goes in that position before the stator shaft is pressed in?? I think I'm going to pull the trans out again, and replace the input drum. I'm nervous that the leakage is too much and that 3-4 will slip because of this & burn up. If I can fix this drum by taking it apart and then sealing it better, I will. If there is nothing I can do to stop that leak, I will get another used drum. At least I now know how to bench test them for this before they get installed.

Do you guys that build them expect to see leakage around that shaft? Should I just leave it alone, or is this an issue that needs to be fixed? My buddy that builds them said a little leakage is normal.. How do you define "a little"? What I saw was a LOT.. What can I use to seal the shaft to the drum?

i put my 2 cents in

Because you where checking through the exhaust hose it has no were to go but compress the piston the pin was plugged

Take a used one first and check it be for you tear yours apart.

old yukon · #30 (**permalink**) 04-07-2011, 10:52 AM

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