500+HP 396 Bench Build Help. Cam? Pistons? - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2013, 02:20 AM
hotrod937's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bellbrook Ohio
Posts: 42
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
500+HP 396 Bench Build Help. Cam? Pistons?

So I've Got this 1969 Camaro. It's a ready roller. All it needs is an engine/trans and shaft. It's a non power anything x11 car originally a banger so I don't feel bad about doing it wrong. Already has a 4.56 TruTrac 9 inch under it and sub framers..


I've also got this carb to pan '65-66 396. It's complete including a 6223 steel crank and closed port 702 heads. I've got the stock pistons and rods also. I know this isn't the best BBC to build but it's what I have.

I'm going to think of it as my SBC in my Trans Am. That motor is a 385 with 230cc aggressively ported Dart Iron Eagles and an comp solid street making a hair under 500. I should have went more cam with my huge heads, 3500 stall and 4.56 gear.
The SBC cam I'm running.
12-771-8 - Xtreme Energy
Trans Am flexing its muscle in stupid fashion.

Now if I think of the 396 as the older stronger brother of my 385 sbc, my plan is to run a .600+ lift solid roller with similar lsa in case I upgrade brakes later (probably will as it's drums all around). Tell me about building these 702 closed chamber heads for big lift and proper borderline street compression pistons (for closed chamber 396 motors). For now I'll probably run a 2500 or 3500 stall but later change over to a 4 speed.. Also gonna use a Holley 800dp carb and probably some type of air gap single plane manifold. (I would like the option to run a flat hood in the future)

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2013, 02:44 AM
hotrod937's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bellbrook Ohio
Posts: 42
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Alright, here's the 3 cams
Are these Comp XR series cast cores?
11-772-8 - Xtreme Energy
11-773-8 - Xtreme Energy

And this Magnum cam isn't a cast core?
11-693-8 - Magnum

If I get the stronger springs would this help more around the 7000rpm through the traps. Should I spend the bucks on the TI retainers or would I be okay with the steel?
Lighter street friendly?
COMP Cams: Dual Valve Springs: 1.539" O.D. Outer, .747" I.D. Inner
Heavy, spend the 300 on the TI?
COMP Cams: Dual Valve Springs: 1.525" O.D. Outer, .730" I.D. Inner

Also should I run the Comp lifters? I read a while back when I was building my SBC that the 818 solid rollers from Comp had needle bearings that like to fall down in your pan when taking a beating and saw some guys like the Isky Red Zones that IIRC were bushed. And why would I want the .300 taller body ones?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2013, 04:55 AM
BOBCRMAN@aol.com's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Holly, michigan
Posts: 8,065
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 21
Thanked 255 Times in 239 Posts
The 702 heads are not real good flow heads. Will require much labor $$$ to work. Hard seats with 2.19-1.88" valves will help flow and streetability. But, The small chambers, which you need on a 396, shroud the valves. Also will need valve spring pocket work to install springs for roller lift specs $$$.
Add the basic machine work $$$ and parts to make these old heads usable and you have a major investment in mediocre heads.

+.300 lifters are for later blocks. Go with steel retainers.

Then you get into pistons. Only basic rebuilders stuff is stocked or even available by most warehouses. Not suitable for your intended use. So unless you want to custom order some forgings. $700.00+ your other option is using Keith Black hypers. Also usually not stocked by warehouses.

I am going thru a situation with a customer right now.
He is on a modest budget and insists on using a 402 block and crank. Plus his buddies keep advising him on this build.
He had a good 454 short block but traded it for some reason. Now he has to pay the small bore BBC penalty.

Here is what he has to work with.
402+030 2-bolt block.
cast crank
oval port 112 cc heads.

Problem 1= because of cost and availability, he had to go with replacement pistons, universal dome, .020 short.
Problem 2- I advisd him to at least install aftermkt valves and hard exh seats in heads and 2.19" intakes. His buddies say no. Not needed on small engine.. So it's basic work plus trying to find usable springs/retainers/seals for the cam he insists on. A .700" lift 108 cl. Roller.
Problem 3= Valve to piston clearance with stock design piston. Glad I'm not assembling this engine.

I could go on for a couple of pages but engine people will see what this is going to turn out as..
Just let your "expert" buddies help you with your engine. The guy with 40 + years at the machine shop don't know crap!

Last edited by BOBCRMAN@aol.com; 03-07-2013 at 05:06 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2013, 08:50 AM
vinniekq2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC,Canada
Age: 56
Posts: 7,339
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 289
Thanked 703 Times in 679 Posts
consider a Z-33 cam from Isky,or something similar
its .560 lift,108 lobe center and 250 duration @.050
Obviously you could spend more and get a roller cam and custom pistons

My street 454 I used open chambers and a Z-55 and it worked quite well.I picked up 4/10s when I took off the performer and put on an oval vic jr
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2013, 10:40 AM
painted jester's Avatar
TAKE A KID TO A CAR SHOW
 

Last journal entry: My grand Daughter at a car show
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Michigan
Age: 68
Posts: 1,787
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 98
Thanked 265 Times in 217 Posts
Which engine do you have 396-cid 425-hp with 11.0:1 compression ratio? or the 396 375 hp?, 396 325 HP? etc, piston ranges were from 9:1 to 11:1 forged! What pistons do you have?

four-bolt main caps?

The 1965 396/425 HP,

The 396 was offered in several configurations and produced different horsepower and torque ratings, depending on its intended application.

The 396 with a 10.25 compression ratio produced 325 horsepower at 4,800 rpm and 410 ft. lbs. of torque at 3,200 rpm.

The Z16 performance 396 with a 11.00 compression ratio produced 375 horsepower at 6,500 rpm and 420 ft. lbs. of torque at 3,600 rpm.

The 396 with a 11.00 compression ratio produced 360 horsepower at 5,200 rpm and 420 ft. lbs. of torque at 3,600 rpm.

And the 425 hp version that produced well over the rated HP




A Side Note:
The correct cam bearings for the engine you have is very impotent some take a grooved rear cam bearing #396 Clevite SH615S 65-66 only!!!
Clevite SH616S 67-93 396-427.

Jester
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to painted jester For This Useful Post:
vinniekq2 (03-07-2013)
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2013, 11:21 AM
vinniekq2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC,Canada
Age: 56
Posts: 7,339
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 289
Thanked 703 Times in 679 Posts
A Side Note:
The correct cam bearings for the engine you have is very impotent some take a grooved rear cam bearing #396 Clevite SH615S 65-66 only!!!
Clevite SH616S 67-93 396-427.

Jester
good thing to remember
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2013, 12:36 PM
hotrod937's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bellbrook Ohio
Posts: 42
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I believe it's a 325 HP motor. I know about the groove in the cam. So it's a no go then? The heads don't such enough air? Too much machine work: hardened seats, spring pockets, bigger valves and eye brow and valve shroud clearance? No comments on the cams? Can very mild port work make these heads flow 300cfm @.600 in 20inches? No bigger intake valves? What say you about the cams?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2013, 03:01 PM
painted jester's Avatar
TAKE A KID TO A CAR SHOW
 

Last journal entry: My grand Daughter at a car show
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Michigan
Age: 68
Posts: 1,787
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 98
Thanked 265 Times in 217 Posts
Sure it can still be a GO.

Forged pistons, good heads, 4 bolt main,forged steel crank, ballanced lightened reciprocating assembly and valve train (girdled) 5000 stall. 4.88-5.13 axle ratio. 12/1 13/1 compression Tunnel Ram Intake with 2 850s. RPM-Range (4500-8500) roller cam Valve Lift (.727 .727) Valve Lash hot (.030 .030) ADV Duration (330 330) .050 Duration (288 288) LC 108. that's one BIG MONEY!!!!!!! LOL WE could suggest anything !!!!

Or a stock 396 2 bolt main 325 HP, forged stock pistons & rods, the heads you have and supercharge it at about 7 to 10 pounds boost with a mild force induction cam 500 hp is easy and street able max RPM around 5500 a lot cheaper!! Or spray it that's even cheaper.

500 HP out of a normally aspirated single carb 396 325 HP engine with stock bore calls for very high compression and big money! The 65 396 was called the fat block because of the cylinder wall thickness and could be bored to extremes so if that's the block you have you have a lot to work with, 4 bolt mains your best choice , the 2 bolt mains limit your build depends where your money runs out " MONEY = HP, TORQUE, and SPEED"
Cylinder-Head Flow-Bench Database
GM 702 Iron Oval Port an early 396ci and 427ci closed-chamber head used only in ’65 and ’66. This head virtually clones the GM 290’s flow numbers. While the 049 head flows much better the 049s would drop compression two full points. The best set up here is to either give up some power and use the GM 702 head you don't lose much or go with the better GM 049 head and Open chamber pistons to match.

GM 049 Iron Oval Port This Open chamber oval-port head saw use in a number of 402ci to 454ci big blocks from ’73-’84. Of the three stock iron oval-port this one was the strongest. Again, like other production heads, if horsepower is your goal, larger valves are the way with these heads

Jester

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/atta...36269350193501
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	p104871_image_small.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	6.2 KB
ID:	72115   Click image for larger version

Name:	p104873_image_small.jpg
Views:	90
Size:	5.5 KB
ID:	72116  

Last edited by painted jester; 03-07-2013 at 03:06 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2013, 05:04 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 28
Posts: 8,605
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 15
Thanked 273 Times in 255 Posts
It's be a lot cheper to just buy a good 454 core and do a cam and intake swap. Just because you have something g doesn't mean it's a better idea.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2013, 05:52 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Virginia
Posts: 705
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 75 Times in 75 Posts
Here I go again, "against the grain"... We get "flack" all the time for building "baby big blocks". I like 396. It's a good, solid basis. I shares the rod/stroke ratio with 427, and revs just as nicely.

I believe the heads you have with the 325 HP version, have fairly good sized oval intake ports, at least "better" than most mid-70s and later oval ports. The "closed" chamber makes things a LITTLE tougher, but not a big deal. Icon makes a nice replacement piston that's lighter than the Speed Pro, and you can still machine the dome to "fit". Both the Icon and Speed Pro are readily available and up to the task.

We install the 2.190/1.88" valves in the oval port heads all the time. A little "blending" in the bowls is all that's really needed, and they can "feed" a 396 well over 7,000.

We built one last year for a "show/go" Camaro ('70 SS396). With the Muncie, 3.73s and "street slicks", it goes 11.70s. 93 octane, reasonable idle, 13" of vacuum, "all done" at 6,500. Comp Xtreme Energy solid flat tappet, 236/242 @ .050, old fashioned Torker intake, AED 750 HO carb. Woo Hooo!!

So, yes, 396 can be a very potent street engine. And no, you don't need the monster money parts to do it.

BTW: All 366s, 396s and 427s used the 6223 crankshaft. Good forging. I don't believe you need a 4-bolt until power exceeds 600 HP or RPM exceeds 7,500. Then, installing splayed-bolt caps to your existing block would be infinitely more desirable than trying to find a 375 or 425 HP block...

Jim
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2013, 06:35 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 28
Posts: 8,605
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 15
Thanked 273 Times in 255 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. P-Body View Post
Here I go again, "against the grain"... We get "flack" all the time for building "baby big blocks". I like 396. It's a good, solid basis. I shares the rod/stroke ratio with 427, and revs just as nicely.

I believe the heads you have with the 325 HP version, have fairly good sized oval intake ports, at least "better" than most mid-70s and later oval ports. The "closed" chamber makes things a LITTLE tougher, but not a big deal. Icon makes a nice replacement piston that's lighter than the Speed Pro, and you can still machine the dome to "fit". Both the Icon and Speed Pro are readily available and up to the task.

We install the 2.190/1.88" valves in the oval port heads all the time. A little "blending" in the bowls is all that's really needed, and they can "feed" a 396 well over 7,000.

We built one last year for a "show/go" Camaro ('70 SS396). With the Muncie, 3.73s and "street slicks", it goes 11.70s. 93 octane, reasonable idle, 13" of vacuum, "all done" at 6,500. Comp Xtreme Energy solid flat tappet, 236/242 @ .050, old fashioned Torker intake, AED 750 HO carb. Woo Hooo!!

So, yes, 396 can be a very potent street engine. And no, you don't need the monster money parts to do it.

BTW: All 366s, 396s and 427s used the 6223 crankshaft. Good forging. I don't believe you need a 4-bolt until power exceeds 600 HP or RPM exceeds 7,500. Then, installing splayed-bolt caps to your existing block would be infinitely more desirable than trying to find a 375 or 425 HP block...

Jim
Those et's would indicate that recipe is good for around 375hp, which is about right for a bunch of cheap left over parts on a 396. And there's not a damn thing wrong with that, BUT its well short of the 500hp goal originally indicated.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2013, 08:27 PM
painted jester's Avatar
TAKE A KID TO A CAR SHOW
 

Last journal entry: My grand Daughter at a car show
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Michigan
Age: 68
Posts: 1,787
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 98
Thanked 265 Times in 217 Posts
If you build the 396 you would have to spin the motor a little tighter and run a little more cam and compression to bridge the 454s advantage in cu inch and Torque!

The 396 has had a big reduction in the cost of its parts. A forged 396 crank sells for about $100, A forged crank for a 454 could cost as much as $400 , And a used 396 short-block will usually only set you back less than $300. While a 454 short-block would cost $600 . You already have the 396 so you can put the 454 money into your little RAT build, and with a 450 to 500 HP 396 that revs 7500 RPM , put the 454 boat anchor back on the chain and in the water! Its not that hard!

After building and running 409s, I owned and built many 396s & 427s mainly blue printed & balanced stock 396/375 HP & 396/425 HP & 427/425 HP high revers that when built just about dyno'd at 450 & over 500 HP. And that's stock blue printing and good balancing! A little porting ,and L 88 cams(L-88, 264/270, 112/108, .560"/.580" lift) or the ZL-1, 262/273, 110/?, .560"/.600" lift) but there are much better solid roller cams now, and intake & carb work, I don't have much experience with the 396/325 HP builds except for numbers matching restorations a few street rod minor hop ups! but installing splayed-bolt caps like P-Body said cures the main problem!

If a 454 is good why not a 496

Mr. P-Body, And I both seem to like 396s & 427s LOL we're probably a dieing breed just like the "Little Big Block 396s" I think the heads you have would keep your compression up and with the stock pistons the compression was around 10.5 to one, a little milling, a deck shave, a thinner head gasket and 11 to 11.5 is possible, do your own porting, a ZL1 cam or solid roller, Roller rockers, lighten the valve train, balance the reciprocating assembly, etc and 420 HP is reachable!

Better heads (aluminum) & pistons for Higher compression (13to1), bigger cam and 500 hp can be achieved but fuel requirements will be hard to feed on the street!

Why did you pick the figure of 500 HP for the 396? AP was right about its more easily obtainable with the 454 (and on pump gas)! The 396 /425 HP little rat when you put your foot in it would;> Still Snap your head into the back seat<

Jester
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2013, 10:07 PM
painted jester's Avatar
TAKE A KID TO A CAR SHOW
 

Last journal entry: My grand Daughter at a car show
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Central Michigan
Age: 68
Posts: 1,787
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 98
Thanked 265 Times in 217 Posts
I forgot to mention LOL Many don't know that the 375 HP and 425HP 396s were internally identical it was the exhaust system of the model it was installed in that made a difference in HP!

Jester
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2013, 10:20 PM
vinniekq2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC,Canada
Age: 56
Posts: 7,339
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 289
Thanked 703 Times in 679 Posts
seems to me the 360 hp was also way under rated
for anyone that thinks a 396 is not easy to make power,I hope you are not one of those same people that think the 383 stroker small block is a street killer? The 396 has more potential by a long stretch
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2013, 11:52 PM
hotrod937's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bellbrook Ohio
Posts: 42
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
If you build the 396 you would have to spin the motor a little tighter and run a little more cam and compression to bridge the 454s advantage in cu inch and Torque!

The 396 has had a big reduction in the cost of its parts. A forged 396 crank sells for about $100, A forged crank for a 454 could cost as much as $400 , And a used 396 short-block will usually only set you back less than $300. While a 454 short-block would cost $600 . You already have the 396 so you can put the 454 money into your little RAT build, and with a 450 to 500 HP 396 that revs 7500 RPM , put the 454 boat anchor back on the chain and in the water! Its not that hard!

After building and running 409s, I owned and built many 396s & 427s mainly blue printed & balanced stock 396/375 HP & 396/425 HP & 427/425 HP high revers that when built just about dyno'd at 450 & over 500 HP. And that's stock blue printing and good balancing! A little porting ,and L 88 cams(L-88, 264/270, 112/108, .560"/.580" lift) or the ZL-1, 262/273, 110/?, .560"/.600" lift) but there are much better solid roller cams now, and intake & carb work, I don't have much experience with the 396/325 HP builds except for numbers matching restorations a few street rod minor hop ups! but installing splayed-bolt caps like P-Body said cures the main problem!

If a 454 is good why not a 496

Mr. P-Body, And I both seem to like 396s & 427s LOL we're probably a dieing breed just like the "Little Big Block 396s" I think the heads you have would keep your compression up and with the stock pistons the compression was around 10.5 to one, a little milling, a deck shave, a thinner head gasket and 11 to 11.5 is possible, do your own porting, a ZL1 cam or solid roller, Roller rockers, lighten the valve train, balance the reciprocating assembly, etc and 420 HP is reachable!

Better heads (aluminum) & pistons for Higher compression (13to1), bigger cam and 500 hp can be achieved but fuel requirements will be hard to feed on the street!

Why did you pick the figure of 500 HP for the 396? AP was right about its more easily obtainable with the 454 (and on pump gas)! The 396 /425 HP little rat when you put your foot in it would;> Still Snap your head into the back seat<

Jester
Good info. I explain everything at the top. If I can make a sbc with 490hp then why can't I make a bbc have 550?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Tags
396, 702 heads, bbc, cam

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
396 Build Suggestions jmichaelre Hotrodding Basics 21 09-12-2011 07:55 AM
T-bucket bench seat build Keeper Interior 23 06-16-2011 06:39 PM
Looking for help on 396 build 396Rookie Engine 16 01-12-2011 03:18 PM
396 or a 454 build up? 355Nova Hotrodding Basics 15 05-20-2010 08:51 AM
dished pistons for a 396 chevy????? 68 chevy Engine 4 04-29-2006 03:55 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.