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54 Quarter panel- best way to install?

4K views 51 replies 7 participants last post by  tech69 
#1 ·
I'm replacing a large section of the driver quarter on my 54 Bel Air. I've got two patch panels I can use, one is a wheel opening patch and the other is the rear quarter patch from EMS. I'd like to combine them to patch the entire area. What is the best way to do it? Pics attached.
 

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#3 ·
I don't want to contradict people with more experience than me, BUT, I suspect that EMS panel is going to fit much better than the flat wheel arch. If the EMS panel follows the contours and wheel house and the flange slides up under the original panel, I would use the entire EMS panel first and then only use the flat panel to fill in. With the flange, you can use drill screws to hold it tight while tacking and eliminate most of the buckling you had on the first patch.
 
#5 ·
When I replaced mine, I stuck a fender skirt in the wheel well to verify the wheel opening was correct. I would also agree with Mitch that the EMS panels are not perfect but they are the best available for these cars. I would use as much of it as practicle.

John
 
#7 ·
Both parts are steel. If using the entire EMS panel, I would not have purchased the other piece but made a simple patch to attach to the front. The place to hide a seam is not in the middle of a long straight line, its near a contour. So since our hero has brought both panels to the table, I would use the straight section of the wheel opening patch and make the joint where it starts to curve down. Do you three have any reasoning for your responses other than speculation about fit?
 
#10 ·
You are very right.

The bummer is at this point there isn't much that he can do other than install the most of the better panel. If they are equal, install the rear in it's entirety and then cut the front one down to what is needed at that point. But if the front panel is really good and the rear one funky, install the front one in it's entirety and cut the rear one down to fit what is left.

Now that the quarter has been cut across that line there is no other option if we are talking about those two patches as being the ones that will be used.

Brian
 
#8 ·
This is where your extensive experience with body work comes into play. As an amateur, I would rather use the flange on the EMS panel to reinforce the long seam, rather than butt welding that and risk warping where it is very difficult to get behind for hammer on dolly correction. At the very least, I would use a backer plate to hold the 2 pieces in alignment. The EMS panel appears to be most of the wheel opening and the vertical seam would then be in approximately the same area of the opening, just at the front, rather than the rear. I'm not concerned about the small vertical seam of the 2 pieces, it's that LOOOOOOONG horizontal seam that would look like a banana if not supported and welded properly. Having the vertical seam at the front also puts it in the same area as the patch he has already installed and they could be final finished together.

Remember, we don't have the experience, or confidence to just dive in and cut and weld like a professional...;)
 
#9 ·
I came here to help folks head off stampedes like what happened on the first patch. Imagine how this job might have went if that first patch had extended to the wheelwell. Had these new parts been in hand when the plan was made, a simpler more effective way may have been obvious. Theres always a method to my madness but just because I do something a lot does not mean I ever did it right once.

Chiphead you keep asking and I'll keep trying to make simpler repies.
 
#11 ·
A couple of thoughts here guys.

First. If you weld the area above the wheel well first, you may be able to slip a copper faced "backer" in there while you weld and limit it's tendency to draw in. You will be able to slip it in there while the rear section is still open.

Secondly. I personally would not use any more of either patch than necessary. Cut the patch down and butt weld the trunk area so you can conceal that weld seam on the inside.

There are many, many good posts on line here for making good butt welds but the bottom line is, work each weld and keep the panel in line while you go. Don't let the distortion get ahead of you or it will be a nightmare getting it back.

Very best of luck to you.
John
 
#12 · (Edited)
I've said it before and will say again: There are quite a few guys here who can be trusted on bodywork stuff. There sure is such a thing as "controversy generator" threads but this seems like a legit question.

My original reference to a butt weld was to join the patches, off the car.

The way the quarter fix has been done isn't wrong by me. As everyone can see, its user choice and its the guy standing next to the car that decides.

My only other input would be on backing plates and stepped flanges-

They are all potential corrosion hotspots with small voids that cannot be properly coated.

Horizontal ones can adversely affect impact absorption in a crash by transferring energy to other areas. But it ain't like they done a heap of crash tests on 54 Chevys.

Fillers and finishes over stepped flange repairs are less durable because those areas are double layered now and to not transfer ambient temp changes as the surrounding areas do.

Lastly, if a backing plate warps, the remedy becomes much more serious.
 
#13 ·
I'm for the butt welds too. A flange or backing is "easier" if it's welded properly can work well. But doing the butt weld isn't as hard as thought and is way easier to work with.

Brian
 
#14 ·
Lets see if this makes any sense.
I find most times the answer lays with a combonation of the two answera not one or the other. Why not make a flange joint and have all the advantages of being easier, stronger and having a lip to use drill screws for assembly purposes . That long seam needs to be straight having a flange gives it strength and it'll stay there as where not having a flange its almost impossible to get that edge to stay straight.
You'll need to remove and replace the section a few times to get the fit nice so using the drill screws makes things quick and easy. if theres no flange theres no way to hold the panel exactly where you want it and exacty in the same place every time.
So theres quite a few advantages to having a flange especially for someone without years of experience.
As far as I can tell theres only two reasons NOT to use the flange joint the rust is only an issue if the joint is done upside down and holds moisture like a cup. and seam sealer isn't used.
the second reason is if you look in the trunk you can see the flange. both are who cares issues any way unless your building a show car but this is a D.I.Y.er job..
Why not use a hybrid a combination of both joints make a flange and use it until your ready to weld then cut the flange of and make a butt seam, where yo need a few screws to hold the panel leave a little tab that can be easily cut off when that section is welded and no longer needed.
Heres a picture of the tab that's left when cutting the flange off.
 

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#15 ·
All good points Mike. The one thing I always chuckle about is the that a flange causes rust, the ENTIRE car, every single car made on earth since about 1930 are held together with flanges welds! The ENTIRE rest of the car is flanged together, what's one more?

On the same respect, upping your game to a butt isn't a bad idea either. But your points are all valid. :thumbup:

Brian
 
#16 ·
Wow, all good points. One thing I didnt think of, was that the flat wheel opening patch may not have the crown of the original panel that was removed. If I just weld it in, the quarter may flatten out and look bad. The EMS panel does have more of a crown that resembles the car's contours. I'll have to study the patches closer.

If you look at the pics in the first post, you'll see a piece of tape on the car. The area I'm really concerned about is ahead of the tape, where it's really hard to get a dolly or a hand or anything back there. I was thinking about welding the area ahead of the tape, straighten that area by sticking the spoon dollies in from the back. Then weld in the rear section where I can easy get to the back side. Too much chopping?

I can weld the EMS patch in one piece, but how do I get behind the weelhouse to stretch the tacks? Is that why some of you guys are recommending keeping the flange on the EMS panel? Right now the car is trimmed to fit line-to-line to the EMS panel.
 
#17 ·
On that long, floppy panel, I would use a flange to help hold it firmly. Use plenty of drill screws, tack slowly to allow cooling and you shouldn't need to stretch the weld seam. For the flat patch at the front, you can pre-weld a backer panel behind the quarter to emulate a flange like this.



I used the backer in this situation because the gap was too wide and I knew it would shrink and warp. With the backer, it stayed straight.



And yes, I seam seal all flanges to prevent water intrusion.
 
#19 ·
very good point. I did a 55 Chevy quarter and used a backer for an open butt weld and it turned out great. When I was done I removed it and welded the holes shut. If you're asking about the "best" way to install it, that would always be an open butt weld. I'm sure somebody out there wants to argue about that but there's really no argument, but the point ought to be brought up about skill level, as that would determine what I'd suggest. If you can cut and scribe good, which is easy, and you can tack weld sheet metal good, go for the open butt weld. If you're not comfortable with that than flange it.
 
#20 ·
Skill level variation is why my suggestions begin with "I would..." Rather than "You should...". A person can't be expected to know what " best" looks like until they've seen or at least heard of it. I sectioned using backers for many years and am not opposed to their use, its just not for me anymore. I own a flanging tool but broke it long ago. Thats a wonderful thing for everywhere except outer skins in my opinion.

OEMs suggest small tabs to control warpage on longer butt welds. Bosses have specified "sleeving" rocker and quarter section joints in the past, as they have weld-thru primer. Anytime I've tried copper backing it has made things worse as far as burn through and warpage, by disrupting heat flow. Since this task is leaning toward a flange and the point has been made that fixed cars are still full of bare, un-tended flanges... I'll suggest epoxy primer on a brush, along with a blow gun and gravity to push it, applied into the seam as much as possible before sealing it up.
 
#21 ·
Chiphead, I truly am trying to understand your repair situation but can't get why you need to access behind the skin for hammering. I totally don't understand what stretching tacks is for. The trouble might just be that I'm new to the HRF ways of doing things so I'll continue my studies. Practice butt welding more before you start on the actual car. I believe you could get comfortable with it . As with anything, preparation is key.

Not gonna say anything more about where to cut what!
 
#22 ·
Yeah the hole "stretching welds" is about "planishing" them, it really isn't the thing to do with a MIG weld.

MIG welding is quite different than TIG or Torch and it basically doesn't need the planishing if done correctly. With the MIG you can weld hot and fast welds that simply don't shrink up as much as a TIG or Torch weld, they do, don't get me wrong, but not nearly as much because the HAZ (Heat Affected Zone) isn't nearly as big.

You weld short, hot, fast welds and let them cool, I mean really cool completely. You weld a few, spread out apart from one an other, then let them cool completely before welding more. You can get away with some pretty amazing welds doing this, out in the middle of flat panels even. I started doing this when filling door handles on late model mini trucks (use to do a lot of them) after warping a few panels to hell. I got so where it would take me darn near all day to weld up these door handle patches on a truck. I would weld a few on each door then go on to work on something else. Then come back to them and then go on to work on something else, allowing them to cool completely. It was amazing how smooth the panel would be once done.

It's a whole different animal than TIG or gas where you would want to planish it smooth to stretch out the weld back to original shape. This all goes for butt or backing by the way.

Brian
 
#23 ·
Most every auto manufacturer has gotten away from flanges and backings though. They almost all want you to butt weld. I think largely because of improper use and execution. Like I said, the entire car is held together with similar welds, what's one more?

Brian
 
#24 · (Edited)
OK, let me state that I am pretty new at bodywork. All the reading I've done says to peen the welds with a body hammer after a round of MIG tacking. Tack a few, grind down until slightly proud, stretch the tack and then lay another set of tacks. Repeat until the joint is finished. Then carefully grind the weld smooth. Over and over and over this is repeated on various car building websites.

You're saying I should not have to peen the MIG tacks to stretch them if the tacks were done correctly? That would change my approach. I was assuming I had to get behind the panel to planish the MIG welds after each pass. Not so?

I'm starting to "read between the lines" a bit. You guys are assuming the skill level of the questioner (me) and giving advice accordingly. OK, that makes sense. I can butt weld pretty good. Not perfect but I can be quick on the trigger and don't blow many holes if the steel is good. My MIG welder is a 120V Miller 140 on C25 gas with .023" easy grind wire.

I'm more afraid of dealing with HAZ shrink than I am about the butt welding itself. Thinking about that last patch, it seemed OK after I welded it in. I think grinding the weld flat did more damage than the welding. Can that happen?
 
#26 ·
Just saw your edit...

Thinking about that last patch, it seemed OK after I welded it in. I think grinding the weld flat did more damage than the welding. Can that happen?
It certainly can. I've warped the bejeepers outta panels grinding. Easy enough to control heat during that phase now that you're aware of that danger though. Of course warpage becomes more difficult to control the closer you get to a stamped line, but even your gloved hand can tell you when to wait. Grinding one tack usually takes 2-3 passes for me but I weld messy. Adequate cooldown of the entire area is essential in any case.

Don't let me steer you wrong on technique, I've only ever been tested and never been taught how to do this stuff. Probably why I never heard of the tack shrink thing. Only had a TIG in my hand once. I don't get very technical about metal work and don't care to, and have no control over what folks say about my work. If all else fails, stud gun to the rescue. The job you're about to do does have a medium-high difficulty level considering the age of the car's steel and the patches available. Expect some frustrations on it, they are very normal but can all be overcome.

As previously and wisely suggested- do what you're most comfortable with.
 
#28 ·
I went out today and test fit the EMS panel on the car again. I modified the patch a bit by removing an area under the taillight that did not fit. The fitment was OK, not great and not terrible. I started this 1/4 repair 2 years ago, so I've been studying this repair for way too long.

Here's what I noticed:

The flange that slips behind the existing steel is deeper than the material thickness. If I were to mount the panel to the car using the flange, the EMS patch would be proud of the car by .025"-.035" or so.

The flange depth tapers to straight wall as it curves under the taillight. The curve of the patch doesn't line up with the curve of the car near the tail because of it.

I'm not sure if I've trimmed the quarter too high, the line I cut isn't perfectly straight. It overlaps the panel in the front just a smidge and shows about .050" of the flange near the taillight.

The bottom of the EMS panel doesn't line up with the back of the inner fender where its supposed to be spot welded. The new panel is about 1/4" too high in that area.

Here are a few pics of what I've got. The last pic is inside the trunk, showing the fitment under the taillight.
 

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#29 ·
If the patch is snug up against the inner wheel house and it is riding under the quarter, I would be carefully trimming the quarter to fit the patch. I have a 2" disc grinder that I use for that .

The third pic looks like the patch needs to be pushed in toward the center of the car more. The vertical line of the patch appears to kick out at the bottom, rather than flowing straight down from the quarter. If that was pushed in, the gap at the upper corner under the tail light and the vertical gap at the bottom might close up.

In the fourth pic, if the patch is supposed to be tight to the car for spot welding, you may need to make a slight relief cut in the corner and push the flange up where it belongs.

As for it sticking out beyond the car, does the area between the horizontal trim pieces get painted or is it a metal panel ? A panel would hide the mismatch nicely but if it's paint, you may need to cut the flange off and go the butt weld route.
 
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