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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2010, 11:32 PM
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Since i am not building a full drag motor, i am wondering if the new merlin III Street BBC would be sufficient. i was originally going to to a dart big m, but i think the extra $600 for the big m in not needed.

Anyone use a merlin III street? Comments on quality?

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Old 03-23-2010, 12:34 AM
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i would like to keep this thread going so that i can ask all my questions... otherwise i will end up starting about a dozen more individual threads.

i got a dart big m on ebay for $2100 and free shipping.


Since this will be my street car that will be driven like it was stolen, what say you guys about THESE pistons. with the 119cc heads i will be at about 10.5:1 give or take some based on deck height, head gasket etc.

secondly, i would like to know if i need just a standard oil pump or a high volume one. also, would it be a worthy investment to get one of those Billet Aluminum oil pumps?

and thirdly, do they make oil pans with built in windage trays? i would like to not modify the main fasteners on the dart big m, they have splayed caps.
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Old 03-23-2010, 07:49 AM
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Well, I'll take a crack at a few of your questions-I'm building a 540 for my Car (for the Street), and I am using a new GM 502 HO Block-they are certainly good for the power level that I am going for (about 720-750 hp), and cheaper than a Dart big M, although that big M is a better block hands down-if you are going racing with the Car in the future I'd buy the Big M.

I always like the Bill Mitchell "Hardcore" engines, but you hear some real horror stories about them (casting porosity and such), so if given the choice, again I'd go with the Big M for higher power levels-it's stout. Personally, I think you are going a bit big on the Heads, and I think it will be a little lazy down at lower rpm's because of it, but if 1/4 Mile times are your primary mission, you are probably on the right track.

As for Oil Pump, a standard volume Pump should be sufficient on the street (and will be what I will use)-stay away form the standard Melling Pump though, I've heard of breakage on the Pump Body and I understand they have cheapened them up with powdered metal gears-I will probably go with a Billet Pump or the the Melling "Performance" or "Select" Series-like this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-10775/

As for Oil Pan, they do offer Oil Pan "Packages" -like this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MIL-31910/?rtype=10

Obviously, these "Packages" include the Windage Tray and Oil Pump Pickup, so you are good to go. As for my build, I called Tony Mamo at AFR, and per his suggestions and a guy that Tony works with in Colorado Springs I am going with 11:1 compression, which would seem high to many, but I am also at about 5000' of elevation, and we just don't have the Air up here, so you have to squeeze it-I'm using AFR 325cc w/cnc port's, ported Victor Jr., 4150 Carb (I didn't want a Dominator), Eagle 4340 Crank, 6.385" Eagle "H" Beams, so mine won't be quite as trick as yours-sounds like you have a good plan overall-as for Pistons, I'd call Brodix-they should be able to suggest some Pistons for your Heads/build-
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Old 03-23-2010, 12:33 PM
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thanks for the reply.

I am also at 5000', so i need compression, i could get 11:1 by milling the heads a bit, only about .030".

and i did do some reading on world products, and seams like they are a bit of a doozie... my dart block is nice, even splayed caps vs merlin only has strait.

I am shooting for as much HP as possible. I will be using a 4500 super victor with and spacer and hopefully a quickfuel QFX dominator.... if the wallet is up to it.

So actually have the Eagle rods? i have never inspected them/seen them. How are they?
About the oil pump, Do you have any experience with Gerotor style billet pumps?

also, my reasoning for the big heads it i plan to run a solid roller cam somewhere in the 260-280 @.050 with at least .700" net lift. so i will be taking advantage of the heads.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2010, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biscuit6447
So actually have the Eagle rods? i have never inspected them/seen them. How are they?
About the oil pump, Do you have any experience with Gerotor style billet pumps?

also, my reasoning for the big heads it i plan to run a solid roller cam somewhere in the 260-280 @.050 with at least .700" net lift. so i will be taking advantage of the heads.
All I can tell you about the Rods is that they look nice in the Box . I do not have experience w/a Gerotor Pump (other than I have them in 2 GM Vehicles Ive drive- .

I guess I'm not sure about your intentions-what percentage of time are you going to drive this on the street? I'm certain someone else will have a differing view, but what you are describing is more of a track warrior than a street car.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2010, 04:24 PM
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you need to match your compression with the advanced duration of your cam. typically if you want to run 255+ duration @ .050 you will need atleast 11:1, once you get up to around 265-270 you will need to run 12:1. you mentioned that this is a street car, i will say that if you go for a cam that kicks in at 4000 rpm then you will not have much fun on the street. there are pleanty of people who run a 260-270 cam on the street for fun but they all know that they'll never be able to uncork it on the street for that they will need to take it to the track with some very stick tires. i have never understood why anyone would want a 700-800hp street car, you'll never be able to put more than 2/3's that power to the road, and then i could come along with my 500+hp car made for street/strip and either beat you or atleast keep up with you, so what is the point in the extra 200-300hp for the street, it's a whole lot of wasted money.

now this doesn't go for the weekend track racer who keeps his car street leagal and wants to take it out from time to time for a joyride. cause he already knows that he can't put the power to the road but he is able to uncork it at the track. and that makes sense.

IMHO you should shoot for a cam more in the 235-245 advanced duration with about 10:1 or so like you have and a 300-315cc runner head this motor would make a lot of down low usable hp and a monsterous amount of tq. these are the things you want out of a street car
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2010, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my87Z
you need to match your compression with the advanced duration of your cam. typically if you want to run 255+ duration @ .050 you will need atleast 11:1, once you get up to around 265-270 you will need to run 12:1. you mentioned that this is a street car, i will say that if you go for a cam that kicks in at 4000 rpm then you will not have much fun on the street. there are pleanty of people who run a 260-270 cam on the street for fun but they all know that they'll never be able to uncork it on the street for that they will need to take it to the track with some very stick tires. i have never understood why anyone would want a 700-800hp street car, you'll never be able to put more than 2/3's that power to the road, and then i could come along with my 500+hp car made for street/strip and either beat you or atleast keep up with you, so what is the point in the extra 200-300hp for the street, it's a whole lot of wasted money.

now this doesn't go for the weekend track racer who keeps his car street leagal and wants to take it out from time to time for a joyride. cause he already knows that he can't put the power to the road but he is able to uncork it at the track. and that makes sense.

IMHO you should shoot for a cam more in the 235-245 advanced duration with about 10:1 or so like you have and a 300-315cc runner head this motor would make a lot of down low usable hp and a monsterous amount of tq. these are the things you want out of a street car
Most of us with big HP street cars know better than to mess around on the street. With NO traction available and the cost of Insurance its not worth it. Then you add the chance of getting someone hurt it's just not worth it and proves nothing. The only numbers that matter are the numbers at the track. All the trash talk from the slower cars will stop when you show up at the track.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2010, 07:25 PM
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The link on the first page i think is a bunch of 540 builds. unlike standard 350's, a 250* @ .050 in a 540 peaks much lower than in a 350. in the wildest build, they used a 280* @ .050 and it peaked at 7100. for a 350, that would be peaking at 8000+ and need 13:1 CR.

either way, i will get a solid roller, so price is the same for small and large cams.

and i have a light car, so my goal is top end HP, and i will still be able to make 600lb/ft no matter what combo i run.

I am building this motor for One purpose: HP. since it is a 540, there will be tons of torque no matter what. plus i have a 5 speed manual transmission anyways.


I DID have a 327 with a 256/260 @.050 solid cam in it. for a while it have 3.23 gears, and yes, getting that thing to move from a light was a pain. soon as i put 4.10's in, problem solved. granted it did idle at 1200, and was quite sad below 3000. truth is, it was still way funner than the 350 i had with a 220/220 @.050 cam.


the reason i asked about the gerotor pump is so that i have proper oiling in my $8000 plus motor. If i am going to be putting all these nice parts together, the last thing i need is a cheap oil pump.


This will be 90% street driven... but i do mostly highway driving so i abuse on ramps... Not a DD, but a "weekend warrior" type deal. i DO NOT like driving calm, easy going cars. i like being different.

It depends on who you are, i like knowing that i have 700hp under my right foot, but you must be smart about it. you must know when to use it. granted i have never driven anything with more than 400 FWHP. i understand all the modifications necessary to have an honest 700FWHP, but i don't make enough $ to do this overnight. i will do things right, and use some high dollar parts.

I am going to be honest. i am only 19 and in college, but i don't want to like everyone else out there and put in a dime a dozen 350sbc.



The point of this thread is so that i can ask question on parts. Like the oil pump: i want to know what the best pump would be to protect the motor i put all my income into. i guess a dry-sump would be the best, but that is drag race only. i have seen several Wild motor builds that use nice parts, but still remain street legal and run on pump gas.

Standard bbc oil pump (spur gear) tends to cavitate and high rpm, reducing flow, chewing up HP, and ultimately shortening the life of the engine. I know that a gerotor pump is in the $400-$500 range, but it is worth it over a $25 melling pump.

Any input on the pistons, oil pump, and oil pan would be a great help.

Josh
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 03-24-2010, 01:27 PM
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"The link on the first page i think is a bunch of 540 builds. unlike standard 350's, a 250* @ .050 in a 540 peaks much lower than in a 350. in the wildest build, they used a 280* @ .050 and it peaked at 7100. for a 350, that would be peaking at 8000+ and need 13:1 CR."

the numbers i posted on the advanced duration of a cam and the compression ratio need to run that cam where straight from the book. and yes i certainly know that with bigger cubes comes bleed off of the peak power rpm and the over all power band of the cam. but this does not change what compression ratio will need to run in order to use a cam with 260+ duration. and there for changing the fuel octane requirements.

you should listen to Prostreet6t9, especially if you've never driven a car with over 400fwhp, i dont think you know what your getting into. i have a car with a motor that makes about 525fwp/ 500ftlbs (+/- 5-10) that is made for street/strip, on the track i run mid 11's with slicks, on the road i used M/T et streets even this is hard to get to hook on the road.

i understand that you want something wild and that is understandable, but you also have to understand that what will work and what wont, and what will be good for street and what wont. for the street you want lower rpm range with good tq and good hp, how often do you think you will run this motor up to 7000+ on the street, and then i will ask how expensive do you think your inssurance will be after you get caught. i'm not trying to burst your bubble i'm just the voice of reason

oh 8K for a 700-800hp 540bbc cabable of turning 7000+rpm
more like 10-12K from carb to pan (complete), then you mentioned a manual trans, unless it's a bullet proof high $$$ trans it will never hold up to the 700+ftlbs or torque
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 03-24-2010, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my87Z
"but this does not change what compression ratio will need to run in order to use a cam with 260+ duration. and there for changing the fuel octane requirements.

oh 8K for a 700-800hp 540bbc cabable of turning 7000+rpm
more like 10-12K from carb to pan (complete), then you mentioned a manual trans, unless it's a bullet proof high $$$ trans it will never hold up to the 700+ftlbs or torque

I agree with most of your points, however what I think we are not recognizing is that a 700 h.p. Engine at Sea Level is not the same as a 700 hp Engine at 5280'-to have a true 700 hp in Denver means he has to build about a 930 hp engine (rated at Sea Level)-you lose about 3-5% of available horsepower per 1000' of elevation (even this is on the low side of reality), so his (and mine) 700 hp is really only going to be about 525 hp. At these higher elevations higher octane ratings are offered and again, you need to run a higher compression ratio to squeeze what air there is up here-Blowers can be real popular here because of it.

I will have about 13-14K in my engine when finsihed-you're right, they are not cheap-
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Old 03-24-2010, 03:46 PM
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i do understand that but it has got to suck at the same time. i'm luck, i actually live 20 miles from the ocean and to be technical i actually live about 10ft below sea level, yes that is possible, but you could just say i live at sea level. i can feel it im my truck when i tow my in-laws camper up into the blueridge mountains. i know they are nothing like the rocky's but i can still feel it when i get up to around 3000-4000 ft
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Old 03-24-2010, 10:59 PM
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I do have a tremec tko 600. I know full well what is needed to support 700hp. i am not going to go crazy on the suspension, but i will beef things up.

here is my reasoning:

I already have a dart big m, my shortblock will be all forged. luntai, Eagle, and wiseco. luckily, i am good at finding deals on ebay.

brodix cylinder heads cost the same whether they are the bb-2plus or the bb-2xtra. the xtra's have way more power potential at the same cost. Solid roller cams cost about $300, so i will get a nicely sized one.

This will only be my temporary street car, i will get a commuter car soon after, but this what i enjoy doing. i can't express enough how much i like doing this. I never said i wanted a 400hp street car, i said i wanted a 700+ hp street car; i don't like people to burst my bubble.

While other kids my age are spending money on gaming systems, hdtv's, stereos for their car, and other things like that, i am spending money on something that requires a lot of thought and care. this is something that only responsible people should have. I highly respect driving, at least a lot more than most kids my age.

My full name is Joshua Carl Edwards, and my family calls me Joshua OVERKILL Edwards. I know what i am getting into, but it is something i have never experienced, therefore, it is something i want to experience.



have you looked at the links to the 540 build? the used a 281/295 @ .050 cam in a 10.5:1 540. it make 793hp @ 7100 and more than 600lb/ft.


HERE is another prime example of a 555 build that is only 10.6: cr with a HUGH (274/288@ .050") cam in it. not to mention they guy also used 360cc heads.

I am kind of like him: i can tolerate exotic parts and sacrifice luxuries.



I am really trying to find a good oiling system for my expensive motor. I spend hours upon hour reasearching components. I am VERY mechanically minded. BUT i have no experience with a Gerotor style oil pump. i know the LS7 uses one, i understand that they don't cavitate.

how 'bout it?
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Old 03-25-2010, 02:53 AM
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A gerotor pump is fine and dandy- Ford has used them for decades.

They do not tolerate garbage that will go right through a spur gear pump. If you want to use a gerotor, I'd suggest you not run a filter bypass.

My personal thought on the subject is you need nothing more than a Moroso #22163.

If money is no object, dry sump it.
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:49 PM
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Well... i don't want ANY garbage going through my oil pump whatsoever. This just brings up another question: what are some good filters without a bypass? if your oiling system is set up right, you should ever run into oil starvation... right?!?!?!?

I have looked at that pump before, but the gerotor version is only $50 more.

Which pump of the two would be best for startups? which one will supply full oil pressure the fastest in order to reduce engine wear?? since it will be a street car (kinda) it will be started a lot.

thanks
josh
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2010, 07:24 PM
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If you are worried about dry start-up issues and starvation, why don't you just add an Accusump tank to the wet sump system to store 1-1/2 to 2 quarts under pressure?? Standard proceedure in road race cars so the oil system doesn't get bit due to G forces. Shut it off before killing the ignition, save that pressurized amount and use it to pre-lube the next start-up.

I would use the Melling pump with the captured (guided in main body and cap) spur gears myself, pump everything through including trash, let the blocked bypass and filter catch it all. No need to re-invent the wheel here, I would be more worried about getting a GOOD pan that is going to fit your chassis.
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