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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2013, 05:49 AM
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LOL, tec,I feel your pain ...arent you glad you prefit the tail lite..

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2013, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin316 View Post
Deadbodyman,

Should a flange seam be used whenever possible? Do you do anything to the back side to seal it so water doesn't get in and sit there?

I have read elsewhere that a but joint is the favored method.
It all depends Kevin they both have they're advantages,but the only way a flange joint will hold water is if it done upside down...The original panel has to be flanged not the new piece the open edge of the joint is facing down then when your done welding you seam seal the whole back side of the seam...
On a long seam I prefere a flange because its stronger and straighter when done needing little to no dolly work...as long as you prepped the flange so its not wavey ,if its wavey when you start it'll be wavey when you finish.
Butt joints are more likely to warp a panel but since the joint doesnt have the two layers its not as strong and can be hammered and dollied back into shape when it warps (and it WILL warp) another advantage of a butt is it can be dressed up on the inside and wont be noticed, a flanged joint is obvious from inside the trunk ....So you really need to know how to do both so you can decide which one is best for your applicationbut even a flanged joint has butts at the endsIts alot harder to make a proper flange joint but easier to weld butts are way easier to make but harder to weld.I do both ,but on long seams I do a lot more flanges than butts...
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2013, 06:23 AM
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how did the trim line up before you took it apart??
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2013, 08:47 AM
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trim lines up great and I kept that area in tact. everything not a plug weld will be close to it and just under it. as far as the trim on the side, I will make a template of the other side but will make sure I have a good look at the emblem area on the cut out qtr before I decide to include that. i recall doing that to a recent impala and the emblem area was in fact different due to reading from left to right. Didn't hear anything back so I guess I did an ok job.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2013, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman View Post
Ok,Heres something for you to try,just remember where it came from....
remember you were talking about welding a strip to help with doing a butt weld ?
try this on a long seam...
using drill screws screw a 1-2" strip in to help hold the butts in place and back up the weld but insted of steel use a copper strip....when your done unscrew the copper strip and BAM!!! you have a perfect straight butt weld because the copper sucks up heat and backs the weld....
................................................lu v ya 2....................
DBM
That is a great idea! If you butt it perfectly you don't need it, but if you can't, a long seam like that is pretty hard to make perfect, you can put the copper backing, BRILLIANT!

Brian
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2013, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by deadbodyman View Post
It all depends Kevin they both have they're advantages,but the only way a flange joint will hold water is if it done upside down...The original panel has to be flanged not the new piece the open edge of the joint is facing down then when your done welding you seam seal the whole back side of the seam...
On a long seam I prefere a flange because its stronger and straighter when done needing little to no dolly work...as long as you prepped the flange so its not wavey ,if its wavey when you start it'll be wavey when you finish.
Butt joints are more likely to warp a panel but since the joint doesnt have the two layers its not as strong and can be hammered and dollied back into shape when it warps (and it WILL warp) another advantage of a butt is it can be dressed up on the inside and wont be noticed, a flanged joint is obvious from inside the trunk ....So you really need to know how to do both so you can decide which one is best for your applicationbut even a flanged joint has butts at the endsIts alot harder to make a proper flange joint but easier to weld butts are way easier to make but harder to weld.I do both ,but on long seams I do a lot more flanges than butts...
exactly. The guys that swear by open butt welds on everything are either used to production and small sail panels (Toyota recommends it), have never done them on big seams, or will Tig weld it and are very good metal fabbers. The metal fabbers will tell us and show us but if they aren't that good luck finding one of those guys actually showing you he does this in a shop environment on a long seam. The only reason I'm doing it is cause you upped my confidence in doing it with your suggestions that makes it easier, the flanger won't fit, it's cut uneven due to a last minute change of plans, it's in an area that will hold the metal against warpage, and I'm filming it, so there some ego involved for sure. Most times I'd just play it safer and flange, and not feel an ounce of guilt about it.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2013, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
That is a great idea! If you butt it perfectly you don't need it, but if you can't, a long seam like that is pretty hard to make perfect, you can put the copper backing, BRILLIANT!

Brian
Martin, doing a long seam such as a quarter skin doesn't just want to butt up perfectly, my one year old daughter can scribe a line and get a good butt. The gaps are the least to worry about if you can weld. The issue is having it sit flush. We're talking a long seam that wants to sag. As far as copper, I don't really use it anymore cause it brings the molt back too far. If you ever did a hole start to finish with it and grind the backside it will have an inward dimple. So I use them to start a big hole by one or two tacks bridged, then it's coming off, or, I will use it to fill a crack on the edge of something that will otherwise want to burn away.

I just want to use backing for a few tacks to keep the darn thing flush. once it's held up I will do away with it and finish it off.

Last edited by tech69; 04-13-2013 at 10:02 AM.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2013, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
exactly. The guys that swear by open butt welds on everything are either used to production and small sail panels (Toyota recommends it), have never done them on big seams, or will Tig weld it and are very good metal fabbers. The metal fabbers will tell us and show us but if they aren't that good luck finding one of those guys actually showing you he does this in a shop environment on a long seam. The only reason I'm doing it is cause you upped my confidence in doing it with your suggestions that makes it easier, the flanger won't fit, it's cut uneven due to a last minute change of plans, it's in an area that will hold the metal against warpage, and I'm filming it, so there some ego involved for sure. Most times I'd just play it safer and flange, and not feel an ounce of guilt about it.
flange(overlap) panels rust.. big problem.. maybe not in dry areas.. but I'd run from a shop here that was going to flange/overlap then weld.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2013, 10:07 AM
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99% of shops do flanged welds on long seams such as a quarter skin, but not all of them will use weld thru primer on the flange or rust protect and seam seal the back. So I guess you'd be taking your car to boyd coddington's or you're talking a tiny sail panel.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2013, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
flange(overlap) panels rust.. big problem.. maybe not in dry areas.. but I'd run from a shop here that was going to flange/overlap then weld.
I will say it again about flanges and rust, the entire car, EVERY SINGLE WELD on EVERY SINGLE CAR MADE in the past 80 year or so is a flange, or pinch weld, EVERY SINGLE panel is held on with a flange or pinch weld on EVERY SINGLE CAR, what in the living hell is one more going to do?

You are putting a quarter on a 55 Chevy, the ENTIRE CAR is held together with flange and pinch welds, the quarters, the roof, the floor, the rockers, the ENTIRE car is held together with flange or pinch welds, how is one more going to make a difference?

Please excuse my "rant" but this subject cracks me up.

Brian
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2013, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
99% of shops do flanged welds on long seams such as a quarter skin, but not all of them will use weld thru primer on the flange or rust protect and seam seal the back. So I guess you'd be taking your car to boyd coddington's or you're talking a tiny sail panel.
I have run 3 foot butt welds, sorry no photos, before the digital age.

Brian
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2013, 10:21 AM
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What's funny is before I got into ICAR training and collision work at shops I never used a backing in my life, or a flange, I didn't even know what one was! And in fact after getting into collision work I found that using a backing could be pretty useful like on a roof pillar of a chopped top. But before the late eighties I had never even thought of it, it was butt welds for everything.

Sorry, no photos.

Brian
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2013, 10:22 AM
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3' is not very long. I've done that before. It's just a matter of spending more time on the welding. Doing a huge impala quarter skin in a shop/open butt weld? Not happening. Boss would flip, would feel rushed, and if I was almost done and it's 4:55 than something's getting warped within those last 5 minutes.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2013, 09:56 PM
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it fits now. I first cut a slice up top then slices in the jamb. This would allow the quarter to follow the contour of the tailight as you pull it up with your hand. So I put the tail light in and moved the quarter even, then took out the tail light and tacked the slices that were then opened up. This made the metal "stay" and not rebound back. Last, I layed a piece of metal on top of the slice, and scribed onto the old and open butted it. turned out great!


before doing the open butt weld up top I knew I had to tack down the jamb area cause I didn't want that gap to walk on me.


To get the metal to stay flush during this open butt weld I clecko'd a couple strips on the backside. Once I tacked all around and knew it wasn't gonna cave in on me I took out the cleckos and the strips dropped into the quarter.




what a perfect little corner to withstand warpage! Not too close either to where it will be a night mare to clean up. Soon as I saw how well the area took a weld I doubled up and did 2 hot tacks and staggered, and still little warpage.


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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2013, 09:27 AM
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thanks deadbodyman, this would not have been possible without your tip on putting a strip up. Sorry to say Martin, you were wrong. No way this gets welded on cleanly without something holding it up.
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