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Old 07-23-2007, 08:10 AM
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650 Holley Double Pumper or Edy 650 Thundre Series

I've had a 650 edelbrock carb on my motor for about a year now. I bought it brand new and paid a pretty penny for it. My friends just getting into hotrodding and he bought an intake, carb and valve covers for his car. They're now upgrading it and he said they need more airflow. My intake is junk(performer, possibly warped, several stripped threads). I'm thinking of asking if he'll just sell the intake.

But I will be camming up my motor this summer. I'm hoping to put a comp XE cam in the 350 to get it moving a little more. If I can afford it I will also be buying a set of aftermarket heads. Will my edelbrock 650 be able to handle this or should I buy the 650 holley double pumper?

I'm really tight for cash right now but he's willing to sell me all 3 things for $250.00 It's all brand new in box. The only thing is I don't know if I need the carb. If I don't I would rather just try and buy the intake. It's a performer EPS so it should apparently "give me 5 extra HP" as edelbrock says.

BTW, I'm aiming for 400-450 HP.

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Last edited by topdogger; 07-23-2007 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 07-23-2007, 08:46 AM
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Both carbs (650cfm) are too smal for a 350 with the HP you are expecting. A 750cfm carb would be more fitting.

Why do you think you need a double pumper? A double pumper is not going to give you a boost in hp over the same sized single pumper. All a double pumper will do for you on the street is wreck your gas mileage.

Vince
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Old 07-23-2007, 08:51 AM
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Thats what I was confused about. Everyone keeps telling me the holley will be so much better and work better then the edelbrock. But I figured the ratings would still match up the same and the holley wouldn't handle more.

So if I put a second fuel line on my 650 it would run lean? Right now its on a fairly stock 350 and it runs rich pretty much no matter what. I was thinking duel fuel lines and it should handle it.
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Old 07-23-2007, 09:20 AM
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I'm a little confused. Do you have an Edelbrock carb on your car now? If so there is no way you can put another fuel line on it. If you are talking about the Holley then you must have a single feed Holley. Converting it to dual inlet bowls will gain you nothing as far as hp is concerned. It will make tuning a bit more precise as the rear fixed metering plate would be replaced with a metering block that uses screw in jets.

Again, with the hp you are expecting to get, any 650cfm carb is too small.

Vince
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Old 07-23-2007, 11:12 AM
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this link may give you some basic guidance.....

click on each of the dyno graphs and it lists all of the 350 build parts (intake/heads/etc) and spec's (CR/idle Hg/etc) including which carb was used to reach that HP/TQ

http://www.compcams.com/technical/DynoSheets/

as always...it's "all" the parts have to work together for the best results

for a street car you want 13Hg+ idle and your 650 carb will help

Last edited by red65mustang; 07-23-2007 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:17 PM
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From looking at that list of cams the 268 looks like a very streetable camshaft/setup. The 274 looks pretty close aswell. Are these smart choices? I'm very new to camshaft selection and cylinder head characteristics. If I buy a set of vortec heads I'm pretty sure I could run a 274XE cam. I think they max out stock at 0.500 lift.

My plan is to go with vortec heads. BTW, I have the edelbrock carb. I thought I remember reading somewhere that I could put a second fuel line going into my edelbrock.

What's the cost of going to a roller cam? I know they've come down down a lot in price. Would it benefit me to go with a roller setup? I'm hoping to rebulid my 350 for under $2000. If it's too far gone I will be replacing the block and putting a cam in one either way. The motors ready to come out I'm just waiting to get a hold of a cherry picker.
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:50 AM
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For a relatively stock rebuild for the street as you say you are going to do (you didn't mention which piston's or compression you're shooting for) I would choose nothing bigger than the XE 268/274 cam. A big cam on a stock compression engine (and converter) will not perform and can hurt performance and street-ability. Comp should be 9:1 for this crap gas.

For your application and budget forget the roller, they are still expensive, spend your money on a good set of Vortechs. I'm with "302 Z28" about the 2 fuel lines to your Edelbrock carb, it only has 1 fuel inlet fitting. The "double pumper" is nothing but a controlled leak, some guys run them on the street but they are really for race applications. I think a 650 cfm would work fine, just depends on your rpm limit, you could also use a Holley 3310 750 cfm vac. secondary set up properly or a new 670 Holley Street Avenger. Whatever you do stay away from the race car stuff and do a lot of reading before you do anything, as "Red65" said its the right combination of parts that make a good performing and reliable engine. Good luck.......Dave
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Old 07-24-2007, 06:06 PM
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I guess it wouldn't hurt to post up some more info. I don't want a high rpm screamer. If you ask me thats just asking for trouble when on a budget. I have no problem keeping my motor below 4500-5000. Right now I've got a 2000-2500 stall convertor with a th350(stage 3 shift kit, full manual valvebody) and I'm also planning for 355 gears. This won't be a highway car. It's just going to be a fun messing around car. I mainly drive it to highschool and back.

How does this combo sound?

Comp XE274
Vortec Cylinder Heads
Performer EPS intake(if I can find one for a vortec head)
- Should I get the RPM? I'm assuming so.
Flattop pistons, hypertectic
- Will this get me in the right compression area? What CC heads will I need?

If I buy new assembled vortec heads would the springs and everything work up to 5900 RPM?

Thanks,
Luke
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Old 07-25-2007, 08:27 AM
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Luke,
one of the members uses a saying that is SO true: "ALOT more gooder is not always more good" (in the real world)

reality check:

http://www.speedworldmotorplex.com/calc.htm


3400lb car with a 268/342HP cam=13.2 seconds ET (103mph trap speed)
3400lb car with a 274/369 cam=13.0 seconds ET (106mph trap speed)

you will be risking breaking the motor and drivetrain shifting a 6,000rpms for only 2/10th's of one second quicker time.....(2/10th's of a second=literally about the quickest you can blink your eye closed and open)

go back and look at the 268/274 charts in the 2k to 4k rpm range which is where you actually drive......274 gains you nothing

the top graphs are flat tappet....the bottem HR graphs are roller...roller doesn't gain you much for the $$$

DO the rear gears first!!! it is the best "bang for the buck" you can do on your budget to make a really fun street car..... and you will feel it over the whole rpm range , not just when the motor is WOT/5,000 rpms+.....
it's the motor torque (not HP) actually applied to the rear tires that accelerates the car and pushes you back in the seat!
it's really simple math:
300ft/lb motor X 3.00 gears = 900 ft/lbs applied to the rear tires
300ft/lb motor X 3.55 gears = 1,065 ft/lbs applied to the rear tires
(how much more force is the 165 difference? bench press 165lbs on the bar 12" in one second!)

totally agree with 327nut....you have got to do a lot of reading before you spend a penny!
prime media publishes most of car magazines (Hot Rod/Super Chevy/Mustang Monthly/etc)......
click on each catagory (perfomance/low rider/street rod/etc) on the left....
click on each magazine.....
click on "tech" on the left on each magazine=pages and pages of articles for education and how to's (and lots of good low budget projects that do help)

here's the link:
http://www.primediaautomotive.com/

also use the Knowledge Base link at the top of this site....articles broken down by catagory all the way to model specific

ignore all the marketing more HP hype! build it for the max performance (especially TQ for quicker acceleration) in the RPM range you will actually use.......
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Old 07-25-2007, 08:54 AM
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I dont want to seem like a dummy but are the graphs showing Stock motors or bored out?
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:24 AM
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400smb,

again, left click on a graph gives all the motor spec's for that cam....

all the cams/motors are 4.040 bore x 3.480 stroke

heck, you ain't no dumby....there is so much info there to compare head to head you could probably teach a whole semester class

I hadn't check the bores till you just brought it up....

do read the spec's carefully though.....as the cams get bigger they are changing intake/heads/carb to match the cam requirement to make more HP

Last edited by red65mustang; 07-25-2007 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 07-25-2007, 06:12 PM
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That was what I was contimplating. I kept looking at the vaccuum levels of the 268 and I had a gut feelings it's what I should use. But I wanted the 274 just thinking like a prepy.

Right now my motors shot. It's coming out. I've also got a posi carrier that will be going into my nova. So I will be getting both gears and a motor done up this summer if all goes well. BTW, my 74 SS is an ex drag racing car. Stripped down pretty good. It's lighter then a fully done up nova.

What should I use for cylinder heads? I've looked into the cast iron vortecs but there isn't much of a difference between those and the aluminum edys. And if it's a difference of $200 I would rather spend the money and get good aluminum heads.

For about $1200 Vogt Racing can hand me a pair of brand new assembled aluminum edy RPM heads with 2.02 valves. They're a local drag racing team that runs an automotive shop. Those are the heads they recommend I use. From what I remember they said they were a pretty good head setup. I've always liked edelbrock and the motives the company supports. Would anyone else recommend this product?

I won't be purchasing for a few weeks. This is my research period
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Old 07-26-2007, 07:04 AM
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Luke,
you have a bad case of: "champagne taste on a beer budget"

you don't have nearly enough money in your budget to do all that you want..... (IF the present motor is truly "shot"!...have you done a compression test?).....engine and rear end

you have got to budget a absolute minimum of $10 per HP for a finished installed running quality performance (350HP+?) motor build....no matter which way you approach it

here's one example with parts pricing on page 5 from the prime media link:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ock/index.html

some of your motor parts on this list may be in good shape (dist?) that you can reuse "BUT" you will find parts that are not on their list that must be replaced (crankshaft?) on your particular motor or more parts to get it to run right (radiator/fan/new wiring harness/etc)

plan B = brand new 340hp Vortec long block for approx $2800...put 3.73 gears in it....drive around on 87 octane for roughly $3500

Last edited by red65mustang; 07-26-2007 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 07-26-2007, 10:11 PM
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I haven't started buying anything yet. There's no short supply of 350's so I figure I can put a decent cam and a good set of heads in one and have a good motor for the summer. I'm not going out racing or anything like that. I'm just a highschool kid having fun getting off with the smallest amount of money.

My motor's ready to come out. I'm just waiting to borrow a cherry picker. At that point I will be able to pull my motor and tear it down.
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Old 07-27-2007, 08:10 AM
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Luke,
yes there are lots of junk yard 8.5CR cast pistons 350's available for about $300

the 8.5CR short block will not work with Edelbrock RPM heads (min 9.5CR and hypereutectic pistons recommended)

note in the article link they did re-use all of the junk yard short block parts(cast pistons/crank/oil pump/block "as is", just honed the cylinders for new rings)...
with parts only to "freshen" the stock short block(rings/bearings/gasket kit), total short block price = $600+...
to raise the compression to 10.0CR be able to use their ($1000 for all parts assembled) choice of performance heads machine work costs $450+ (versus buying new pistons and press fit and re-balance for very roughly $400 to get to 9.5CR+....)

just the short block to be able to use high performance heads budget :$1000 (their junk yard block could have easily needed $200+ more of parts or machine work)

Edelbrock RPM "power package"= $1600 (includes: heads/intake/cam and lifters) rockers and pushrods and timing chain not included = $250?

long block and intake=$3000

new fuel pump/water pump/belts/damper/dist/alt/starter/750cfm carb/etc/etc..... as money becomes available= min $500

a total typical street performance motor cost = $3500

here's a different approach: Blueprint Engines basic 360HP/350 motor = $4400....
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...61087_-1_10763

(now subtract the parts prices from their "incuded" (valve covers/timing chain cover/oil pan/etc based on the parts prices on page 5 of the first link that are not absolutely necessary)

360HP costs about $3600

"Plan C"= for a summer of fun (and assuming you carry a cell phone for break downs) for $2000 = go buy a low mileage complete 250HP 350 from a yard (roughly $800 around here) and put it in the car "as is".......
buy a basic $600 nitrous kit, use the 100HP additional jets ......DO NOT use the nitrous for launching the car...have it trigger "on" in second gear or atleast 2500rpms....
put the 3.55 gears and posi in it ($400?) because the stock 350 does have a great torque curve 1500-3400rpms driving around town for plenty of acceration "pep" while your burning 87 octane with lots of timing

Last edited by red65mustang; 07-27-2007 at 02:08 PM.
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