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Old 06-06-2008, 12:48 AM
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67 Camaro -Valve Train noise after Build

I'm wondering if anybody can give me some input on this issue. I have a 1967 Camaro, with a 327/275 hp original block, that I just added an Edelbrock Hydraulic Roller cam, lifters and push rods to. For rockers, I put on some Comp Cam magnum full roller rockers with a 1.52 lift. I'm definitely more of a novice, but pulled my motor and did this build. Prior to the build, the motor was bored over .30 and ran fine. I also put on Edelbrock RPM Performer heads, Air gap intake and a Demon carb. The build seemed to go fine and after 8 months, I just got it put back together 2 weeks ago.

My problem is valve train noise. I seem to have excessive noise. It's not a clatter, but it is pretty loud and consistent throughout the valve train. It stands out quite a bit at idle, particularly with the hood up, in front of the car and while listening around the wheel wells. There was another guy on the forum last week, Guera65 (emailed him, no response), that had the exact same issue as I did. He put a video of the noise on Utube and my motor sounded just like his.

I've called Edelbrock, Summit, Comp Cams and asked everybody I know. So far, the word back is that there is more noise with a roller setup. Can anybody confirm this? Should I be concerned with valve train failure? The noise in my car seems to get worse as it warms up. Also, to set the valves, I did it when the car was cold, went to TDC, through the cylinders at firing order and set each valve with Resistance on the push rod (tightening the poly lock) and then one half turn after that. I've tried turning the polylocks an additional quarter turn and it made no difference. I then cut out an old valve cover, used oil clips and did it at operating temperature with the rocker clacking, zero lash and half turn and the didn't make a difference either. I've run my ear over the valve train with/without a valve cover and they all sound consistent on each side. Edelbrock told me today that I could turn the poly locks down a full turn, but I hesitate to do so as a old Chev buddy of mine says he never goes past three quarters that I might burn a valve.

Any input on this or anybody that has seen/been through this, I'd appreciate it.

Rmoore2225

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Old 06-06-2008, 02:36 AM
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What cam do you have/ How much lift? Are the heads & springs setup for the amount of lift you have? Coil bind on springs? Retainer to guide/seal clearance? Rockers hitting valve covers?
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Old 06-06-2008, 08:47 AM
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I had just ran into this problem with the engine I biult with the valve train ticking. I put the edlebrok rpm package on. What I found is the guides for the pushrods were off a tad causing the rocker arm to not line up withthe lifter and cause a missadjustment when adjusting the rockers.
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Old 06-06-2008, 01:07 PM
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Sorry for not responding....I didnt know I had an email..Anyways...nothing has changed...I have just finished cutting the top of a valve cover and I ordered some of the clips and will do the adjustment while hot and running...Like you I dont think it will make a diff......I too have heard that its ok...Since the Block was done in Glendale (http://www.mandrengines.com/)I am going to drive it there and see what they say.....I personally think that its a rod bearing...but i could be wrong...lots a work to pull it and tear it down....so I will do all the easy stuff first...but I am at my witts end here..I will keep in touch if I find something......again sorry about not responding sooner...
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Old 06-06-2008, 01:40 PM
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Hey F-BIRD,
Can you elaborate more on this....

Excessive ignition distributor body to block clearance

My distributor didnt go down all the way...just a tad of a gap between the block and the distributor hold down...I used 2 distributor gaskets to take up the slack..Could this be the problem and how do you fix...?
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Old 06-06-2008, 02:34 PM
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The lifters were the retrofit pieces for the early, non-roller block? Just a thought.
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Old 06-06-2008, 02:50 PM
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Block decking and head shaving have nothing to do with the distributor mounting surface/area.
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Old 06-06-2008, 03:08 PM
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Check carefully for rocker-to-retainer clearance. Edelbrock recommends .100" pushrods if you are using stock rockers. I know that you are not using stock rockers, but using a roller cam adds another fly in the ointment. Check your rocker arm geometry as well.

Hydraulic rollers can be noisy simply because they are much more aggresive than most non-roller set-ups.

tom
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Old 06-06-2008, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68NovaSS
Block decking and head shaving have nothing to do with the distributor mounting surface/area.
Distributor mounting surface/area, no, but proper seating of the distributor (and proper gear mesh with the cam) can certainly be affected by block and head milling.

tom
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Old 06-06-2008, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RMoore2225
I'm wondering if anybody can give me some input on this issue. I have a 1967 Camaro, with a 327/275 hp original block, that I just added an Edelbrock Hydraulic Roller cam, lifters and push rods to. For rockers, I put on some Comp Cam magnum full roller rockers with a 1.52 lift. I'm definitely more of a novice, but pulled my motor and did this build. Prior to the build, the motor was bored over .30 and ran fine. I also put on Edelbrock RPM Performer heads, Air gap intake and a Demon carb. The build seemed to go fine and after 8 months, I just got it put back together 2 weeks ago.

My problem is valve train noise. I seem to have excessive noise. It's not a clatter, but it is pretty loud and consistent throughout the valve train. It stands out quite a bit at idle, particularly with the hood up, in front of the car and while listening around the wheel wells. There was another guy on the forum last week, Guera65 (emailed him, no response), that had the exact same issue as I did. He put a video of the noise on Utube and my motor sounded just like his.

I've called Edelbrock, Summit, Comp Cams and asked everybody I know. So far, the word back is that there is more noise with a roller setup. Can anybody confirm this? Should I be concerned with valve train failure? The noise in my car seems to get worse as it warms up. Also, to set the valves, I did it when the car was cold, went to TDC, through the cylinders at firing order and set each valve with Resistance on the push rod (tightening the poly lock) and then one half turn after that. I've tried turning the polylocks an additional quarter turn and it made no difference. I then cut out an old valve cover, used oil clips and did it at operating temperature with the rocker clacking, zero lash and half turn and the didn't make a difference either. I've run my ear over the valve train with/without a valve cover and they all sound consistent on each side. Edelbrock told me today that I could turn the poly locks down a full turn, but I hesitate to do so as a old Chev buddy of mine says he never goes past three quarters that I might burn a valve.

Any input on this or anybody that has seen/been through this, I'd appreciate it.

Rmoore2225
A hydraulic roller is no noiser than a hydraulic flat tappet, the point of hydraulic lifters is no valve train noise.

You made no mention of testing the contact patch between the rocker and the valve stem. While Edlebrock tries to make fool proof kits; when you mix parts as Edlebrock cam/lifters/pushrods with someone else's (Comp) rockers onto an engine that potentially has a milled deck and heads married to a valve job that sinks the valves, as all valve jobs do unless your shooting new seats and using larger valves. You get a build up of dimensions that can have the rocker mispositioned in relationship not only to the stem tip but this can get into the pushrod rubbing on the head or the rocker contacting its stud or even rubbing on the spring retainer.

The other thing I see no mention of is a cam button. A roller cam has to be restrained from fore and aft movement in its bearing bore. GM roller blocks starting in 1987 include a thrust plate. Older blocks require a thrust button with a clearance of about .003 to .007 inch between the the button head and the inside of the timing case cover.

So was this engine checked for pushrod length which establishes the relationship of the rocker to the valve stem which in turn controls the angular clearance of the pushrod to head and rocker to stud and retainer? Further, does the cam have a retainer button installed and properly adjusted?

Bogie
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Old 06-06-2008, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbogie
A hydraulic roller is no noiser than a hydraulic flat tappet, the point of hydraulic lifters is no valve train noise.

Bogie
The point of hydraulice lifters is no valve train adjustment.

You need to get your hearing checked, Bogie.




tom

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Old 06-06-2008, 06:23 PM
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Does it sound as loud as this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhmr1FdgTlw
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Old 06-06-2008, 09:07 PM
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F-BIRD88
True....it is a roller block with comp cam magnum roller rockers, comp cam xe288hr hydraulic roller cam, and GM OEM hydrauic roller lifters....
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Old 06-07-2008, 11:06 AM
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67 Camaro - Valve Train noise after build

Guys - thanks a lot for all your responses. I'll try to address the questions/suggestions that have been asked.

I put in the Edelbrock Rollin' Thunder Hydraulic Roller cam package. The intake duration is 234, exhaust 238 at .50" lift. The kit also came with the push rods and lifters. The push rods are the .100 longer than stock. That is the primary reason I put this package in, as more of a novice, I didn't want to run the risk of mixing/matching parts and make a mistake. Originally, I was looking at AFR heads, with a comp cam setup. THe cam package is on Summitracing.com under part number EDL-22015. The heads I put on are the Edelbrock Performer RPM aluminum heads, fully assembled.

My oil pressure seems fine, running it is between 40-50 and at idle (warm), it is over 25-30. I have the original gauge package, so it is hard to tell the exact pressure amount. My oil line comes from the back of the block, directly through the fire wall into my gauge. So, there is nothing at the front of the block.

In regard to a cam button, I didn't know what one was when I started the build, but did in fact put one in. My tolerances are not exact, but it is lightly restraining the cam from moving back and forth. My understanding of a cam button was that it held the cam in place at higher RPM's, where it can jump around. I have no acceleration issues (I may need to re curve my distributor and mess with the timing some) so I don't think that is an issue for me, as this isn't an issue of missing, etc., at idle or in acceleration.

I think a couple items have been presented that could be a problem for me. N-Gin - you mentioned the misalignment of the rocker arm guide plates. Bogie - you mentioned the rocker arm geometry. I can't say I fully understand the rocker arm geometry issues, enough diagnose it, but I am wondering if I could have some issues with mis alignment of the rocker arm guide plates. None appear to be rubbing, they are very close to the push rods, but again, my noise is consistent as Guera65's is across the entire valve train and on each side.

I have noticed that some of my rocker arms are not square, centered on the valve. For example, if a rocker (considered properly set) was at the 12:00 position (referencing a clock for example), I do have some rockers that would be one or two "minutes" past a 12:00 position. Is this an issue, causing excessive rocker noise due to misalignment? I can check again, but I do not believe my push rods are rubbing on the guide plates. This has been a concern, but I did not know if this could be a root cause. When trying to adjust my valves warm (cutting old valve cover, oil clips, etc), I did notice that two of my valves did NOT have oil running over the rocker. These two valves (after pulling the clips) had oil coming through the push rod, but it wasn't' shooting all over. Again, Edelbrock said that this wasn't an issue, that they just needed oil. In talking to a buddy of mine, a guy who knows Chevy's in/out, said he's never seen a rocker not have oil squirting all over the rocker. Little concerning, any input on this would be appreciated. Could this be causing some noise?

The second issue I am tossing around is the pre load. In re reading my instructions, Edelbrock says to put three quarter to a full turn of pre load on the lifter. I have set my pre load at a half turn, tried three quarter turn and nothing changed. An old Chev buddy of mine has told me a few times over the years that he never puts a full turn of pre load on a stock hydraulic lifter, due to concern of burning a valve. However, in talking to him again, he thought that a full turn of pre load might be fine for the hydraulic roller lifters. An article on Chevy Hi Performance a few months ago, said to put one half of turn. Even the TV shows, like HP TV, puts only three quarter turn on the pre load. Any thoughts? I am thinking of going a full turn.

One final question, which nobody seems to be able to answer (Edelbrock, buddies). My motor is running good, etc. Assuming I cannot make this valve train noise disappear (maybe due to roller setup and/or the Comp Magnum rockers as has been suggested) does anybody think that I could be at risk of valve train failure? That is my primary motive here, I really don't want to have that happen, as this build has been long and expensive and I just want to get out there and run this thing.

Again, I appreciate everybody's input.

Rmoore2225
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Old 06-09-2008, 09:15 AM
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Well I am definatly no expert in engine building I do know a few things and one thing is for sure If it sounds like a loud tick and no other one is doing it, you have a problem. If not adressed it will fail.
Like I said I just put that kit in a engine and it ticked at first but now I adressed the issue of guide plate rubbing the pushrod it does not make a tick sound.
I have the hardend summit pushrods .100 longer. With the aluminum 1.5 roller rockers also Summit. I am runnig 10w30 oil. 32 psi at idle 800rpm.
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