67 GTO, LeMans body. Good Idea? Bad Idea? - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Hotrodding Basics
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2010, 08:54 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: California
Posts: 1
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
67 GTO, LeMans body. Good Idea? Bad Idea?

My project is a real, 1967 GTO with a 4 speed, front disk and rear drum breaks, manual steering no air conditioning. The car is complete but in need of restoration. The body has a lot of rust and has had body work done to repair accident damage on both rear quarter panels at some point in its life. The interior is complete but old, with moldy carpet and rust everywhere on the floor pan.

When I restore it, I would like to make it a cool looking muscle car and not restore it to original condition. I would like to upgrade the breaks to four wheel disks, replace the manual with a 700R4 automatic transmission, re-gear the rear end, add power steering and air conditioning and add the Edelbrock cam, heads, manifold and carb performance kit to the rebuilt engine, Doug's headers and Flow Master exhaust.

I found a straight, rust free "67" LeMans body and I am thinking about using this body instead of hassling with all the damage and rust on my body. I think that If I do that, and use my GTO VIN and data tag, the car will still be a GTO, it just won't match with the build sheet because the LeMans body has built in air conditions vents and my GTO doesn't. I know I will have to replace the tail light panel and cover the louvers on each side, and it will be a GTO body since they are otherwise identical.

So given that I am going to upgrade/modernize the car anyway, and the frame and engine numbers will match the body VIN, would some people still consider it a clone because I used the LeMans body? I am not doing all this to try and fool anybody and/or try and resell it, I just want my car to have modern/convenience upgrades, a built engine and a rust free body so it looks as good as it drives and sounds. I'm sorry that I'm cannibalizing a LeMans, but the body is completely stripped, no engine, or trans. Anybody have ideas on this body swap issue? Anybody done the same thing?

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2010, 09:25 AM
starnest's Avatar
elkyholic
 

Last journal entry: Center Link Installed
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia Beach
Age: 60
Posts: 327
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
What is the reason for "transfering" the GTO VIN tag to the Lemans body?
While you can put the GTO tag on the Lemans, dress the Lemans as a GTO, and title/register the Lemans as a GTO; it will not be a "real" GTO. You will have a great car that looks and drives like a GTO but will still have limited value because it is a Lemans.
Besides updating either body with 4 wheel discs, a 700R trans, and engine mods would make it a restomod - nice to drive but no great value.
The body swap is no great sin - unless the GTO could really be saved by restoration. If the GTO could be properly restored for less than market value it would make sense to restore it. In most cases, a badly rusted body on a basic GTO would not be a candidate for restoration as far as return on investment is concerned.
Assuming your interest is building the car for yourself - build what you want. GTO tag and dressing is OK, but only if it makes "you" happy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2010, 09:55 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: california
Posts: 28
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
67 GTO, LeMans body. Good Idea? Bad Idea?

This is no a good idea, not only because you are trying to make a Lemans a GTO, but also because it is illegal to change a VIN plate from one car to another in California. It is also illegal to possess the rosette rivets that would be necessary to make such a switch. For info the CHP is the only agency that can legally re-vin a vehicle in Ca.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2010, 10:05 AM
1ownerT's Avatar
Home School Valedictorian
 
Last wiki edit: Health and safety in the shop or garage Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Iowa
Age: 53
Posts: 1,645
Wiki Edits: 4

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by blown6t6
This is no a good idea, not only because you are trying to make a Lemans a GTO, but also because it is illegal to change a VIN plate from one car to another in California. It is also illegal to possess the rosette rivets that would be necessary to make such a switch. For info the CHP is the only agency that can legally re-vin a vehicle in Ca.
It is a Federal Law. I am sure many do it though.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2010, 10:12 AM
Member
 
Last wiki edit: Ford axle ratio codes
Last journal entry: Rear Suspension
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Prattsville
Posts: 6,401
Wiki Edits: 31

Thanks: 2
Thanked 59 Times in 55 Posts
still if you switch the vin tags ( felony in itself ), it's being fraudulent if you try to pass it as a GTO when you sell.. it would be a clone, nothing more nothing less
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2010, 11:08 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 373
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt167
still if you switch the vin tags ( felony in itself ), it's being fraudulent if you try to pass it as a GTO when you sell.. it would be a clone, nothing more nothing less
I'm glad to have read that. Some people like to say "re-creation" when selling their CLONES. A CLONE is a CLONE, is a CLONE.

Sounds better for the OP to use the 67 Lemans for this "modded" project, and leave the real GTO for a restoration later on, or sell it off to pay for the Lemans project.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2010, 08:49 PM
302 Z28's Avatar  
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2003
Location: North Texas
Posts: 10,840
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 86 Times in 73 Posts
Any Pontiac or GTO freak can spot a fake or clone no matter how good it is done. To a Pontiac fan it would be real easy to spot that a vin tag has been transfered.

Vince

Last edited by 302 Z28; 05-09-2010 at 07:06 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2010, 08:59 PM
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: How to title a hot rod Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: West Virginia
Age: 25
Posts: 3,393
Wiki Edits: 8

Thanks: 16
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Why are you going to go from a 4 speed to an automatic, the 4 speed is part of the GTO's legacy.
Shane
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2010, 09:18 PM
ericnova72's Avatar
More for Less Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: S.W. Lower Michigan
Age: 47
Posts: 9,450
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 29
Thanked 483 Times in 438 Posts
I say do what you want with it, just don't try to sell it in the future as a 3's matching GTO, make it clear to any buyer that things have been swapped.

On a different note,

I might be in the minority here, but what difference does it make if he swaps the vin and build tags, really?? Besides the legality of it with the DMV, from a resto standpoint the vin was assigned to the body on the assembly line, one body at a time, and one body was not better than the next. It was random and decided by paint code on the body(and tail panel and fender trim in this case).

I'd rather have a GTO clone built out of a rust free body than a repaired rust bucket with matching #'s myself, maybe that is just because I live in a Rust Belt state though. Just don't try to decieve if you sell it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2010, 06:50 AM
1ownerT's Avatar
Home School Valedictorian
 
Last wiki edit: Health and safety in the shop or garage Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Iowa
Age: 53
Posts: 1,645
Wiki Edits: 4

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
I say do what you want with it, just don't try to sell it in the future as a 3's matching GTO, make it clear to any buyer that things have been swapped.

On a different note,

I might be in the minority here, but what difference does it make if he swaps the vin and build tags, really?? Besides the legality of it with the DMV, from a resto standpoint the vin was assigned to the body on the assembly line, one body at a time, and one body was not better than the next. It was random and decided by paint code on the body(and tail panel and fender trim in this case).

I'd rather have a GTO clone built out of a rust free body than a repaired rust bucket with matching #'s myself, maybe that is just because I live in a Rust Belt state though. Just don't try to decieve if you sell it.
That would be fine when he sells it, it is someone down the line that ends up passing it off as a GTO.
The VIN for a GTO could never have ended up on a Lemans body shell. The Lemans and the GTO used some body panels that are different. Nothing random about that.
Besides if I was paying a premium for a GTO, I sure as heck would be pissed if I was sold a re tagged and modified Lemans.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2010, 08:37 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: illinois
Posts: 189
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The only way i would ever feel comfortable buying a numbers matching car would be only if the car was a one owner car and fully documented. There is alot of this out there, Im talking about changing vin tags, restamping blocks, restamping sheet metal and so on . Remember the same guy who knows how to spot or what to look for also knows what he can get away with , and what can be manipulated. Changing the vin number , cowl tags, and so on , happens all the time and you would never know . If you have the CORRECT rivets you would never be able to tell if it was changed. HECK you can get them off ebay if you know where to look . I had a 69 Charger rt , with the broadcast sheet, all numbers matched , carb , intake, all except for the block. The block turned out to be a 73 440 block. With that said , if i wanted i could have got a block with the corect numbers stamped on it . If there is money to be made here, then you could bet someone has the right ( tool or stamps) and knowledge to do it . IMHO , if you guys think you have a numbers matching car and you were not ( were not) the original owner, please dont be so naive. GOATGUY said he is not worried about making it a numbers matching car , so IMHO i would have to say yes, use the better body, BUT dont consider it a clone . GOATGUY dont use the word clone, you will get scrutanized for it , be SAFE and use the word, RESTOMOD. After all you said you wanted to upgrade the modernize the car , then its a restomod, not a clone . Chose your words correctly or you will get scrutanized for it .
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2010, 08:44 AM
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Mopar tapered axle rear brake conversion
Last journal entry: What I'm doing now...
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,267
Wiki Edits: 49

Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
You have one BIG problem. You live in California and unless you wan to spend some time in the "Big House" don't go switching VIN numbers. It is a felony and not only Federal law but also State law. Boyd Coddington found himself in deep kimche when California caught him doing the same thing and he was damn lucky he got out of it with no jail time.

If you want to.... build a clone using the LeMans body, but DO NOT switch the VIN tag.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2010, 08:57 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: california
Posts: 28
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Centerline is right. If I was a crook, I would just steal your pristine, original 67 GTO (lets face it, it just takes a piece of wire and a screwdriver to do). Put my vin plate from the junked rust bucket (with a title)I had, then sell your stolen car for big bucks. It happens more often that you think guys. That is why it is illegal to switch VIN plates, it has nothing to do with restomod vs. clone.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2010, 09:48 AM
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Wheelbase database Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,592
Wiki Edits: 1

Thanks: 6
Thanked 159 Times in 146 Posts
This comes up periodically, with polarizing results.

As I have posted in the past, it is NOT illegal to remove and replace a VIN tag under Federal Law if that is reasonably necessary to complete a repair. The applicable federal law is Title 18, Section 511 of the United States Code. Read it for yourself:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...Cite:+18USC511

Note that the illegal part comes when the VIN tampering is done WITH INTENT TO COMMIT FRAUD. I will also note that state laws vary and may be more or less strict than federal law. As an example, in the state of Maryland, it is not only illegal to tamper with a VIN, it is illegal to tamper with a VIN derivative, such as those stamped on the engine block and frame. Why does no one here caution about doing engine swaps?

Here in Virginia, several nearby body shops routinely repair trucks with severely damaged cabs by removing the VIN tag and installing it on a new, replacement cab. Note that GM sells these cabs without VIN tags. What did you think you were supposed to do about it. They have been doing this for years, have made no attempt to hide it, and they are all still in business.

Here's another example. My wife's 1990 Civic has the VIN tag riveted to the removable dash pad. The factory service manual even directs you to remove the tag and install it on a replacement dash pad.

The thing I find amazing is how people treat the few sqaure inches of sheet metal surrounding the VIN tag as sacred ground. There's apparently no problem replacing the roof, front fenders, rear quarter, floor pans, and trunk lid, but boy, touch that cowl and apparently that's fraudulent. In my opinion, using a complete, rust free, factory welded and seam-sealed shell to replace a rusted hulk is not only less expensive, the result is a much better product than using Chinesium patch panels. Yet, the patch panels are perfectly acceptable to folks who claim that swapping the shell is immoral.

My advice is don't ask, don't tell.

By the way, tampering with or removing emissions equipment is CLEARLY illegal under federal law, yet folks here do it daily.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2010, 09:53 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: illinois
Posts: 189
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
This comes up periodically, with polarizing results.

As I have posted in the past, it is NOT illegal to remove and replace a VIN tag under Federal Law if that is reasonably necessary to complete a repair. The applicable federal law is Title 18, Section 511 of the United States Code. Read it for yourself:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...Cite:+18USC511

Note that the illegal part comes when the VIN tampering is done WITH INTENT TO COMMIT FRAUD. I will also note that state laws vary and may be more or less strict than federal law. As an example, in the state of Maryland, it is not only illegal to tamper with a VIN, it is illegal to tamper with a VIN derivative, such as those stamped on the engine block and frame. Why does no one here caution about doing engine swaps?

Here in Virginia, several nearby body shops routinely repair trucks with severely damaged cabs by removing the VIN tag and installing it on a new, replacement cab. Note that GM sells these cabs without VIN tags. What did you think you were supposed to do about it. They have been doing this for years, have made no attempt to hide it, and they are all still in business.

Here's another example. My wife's 1990 Civic has the VIN tag riveted to the removable dash pad. The factory service manual even directs you to remove the tag and install it on a replacement dash pad.

The thing I find amazing is how people treat the few sqaure inches of sheet metal surrounding the VIN tag as sacred ground. There's apparently no problem replacing the roof, front fenders, rear quarter, floor pans, and trunk lid, but boy, touch that cowl and apparently that's fraudulent. In my opinion, using a complete, rust free, factory welded and seam-sealed shell to replace a rusted hulk is not only less expensive, the result is a much better product than using Chinesium patch panels. Yet, the patch panels are perfectly acceptable to folks who claim that swapping the shell is immoral.

My advice is don't ask, don't tell.

By the way, tampering with or removing emissions equipment is CLEARLY illegal under federal law, yet folks here do it daily.
Exactly........
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Hotrodding Basics posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
69 LeMans into GTO Clone olbones Hotrodding Basics 9 08-04-2009 09:23 AM
Creating a GTO Clone Right 67 LeMans Man Hotrodding Basics 3 01-08-2009 11:01 AM
Introduce Steve (67 LeMans Man) 67 LeMans Man Introduce Yourself 1 01-07-2009 11:31 AM
Where do I get wiring diagram / "how-to's" for a 67 Lemans? riverdale Electrical 5 12-31-2008 12:04 PM
Buying used pistons a good idea? also buying a used cam? LoudMalibu Engine 5 03-20-2003 01:53 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.