'68 Mustang Engine Build - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Hotrodding Basics
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2013, 07:05 PM
Mac88's Avatar
"Drive It Until It Breaks"
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: North Carolina
Age: 40
Posts: 192
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
'68 Mustang Engine Build

I have a question for all the engine experts out there. I've started working on a '68 Mustang. I'm trying to decide which way to go with an engine build and I need a little advice. The car has a C4 with an 8-inch rear end. I think I've found a 9-inch to replace the 8-inch. I'm going to take a look at it tomorrow.
I already had a 351W sitting in my garage that needed rebuilding and the car came with a 302. The guy says the car has sat for several years, so the 302 would need to be gone through as well.
The 351is completely stock with a block casting number of D4AE-6015-AA 8 and the heads are D80EAB. I did a little research and found that neither the heads nor the block were all that great.
The 302 supposedly has had a little work done to it. I do know the block is C80E-6015-A which is supposedly pretty good. According to the chart on MustangTek, this block was a Cobra application that was also used in the '68 302 Shelby GT350. Don't know how true that is. The heads are 351W heads D00E. And the rockers and rocker arms were changed. Not sure if the cam was changed or anything else was done to the bottom end.
So the question is based on the saying there's no replacement for displacement, even though the 351W is not the most desirable, If I'm looking for a good mild build for my '68, should I put money into the 302 to freshen it up and see what it puts out, or just take what I can off the 302 and build up the 351W. I'm not looking for a race car, just a little weekend toy for me and my son. I would like to be around 475-500hp so I'm leaning toward the 351W, but I hate to discard the 302 that already seems to have had a little work put in it.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	100_0792.JPG
Views:	100
Size:	119.6 KB
ID:	73080  

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2013, 07:34 PM
Richiehd's Avatar
JS-70
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Jupiter FL
Posts: 913
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 231
Thanked 66 Times in 58 Posts
If it was me, and the 302 was the original engine, I would reuse the 302. I s it 4 bbl? I take if the rockers were changed was adjustable rocker arms installed? If not you will have to stay with hydraulic cam, which is fine, plenty of choices. Make sure you pick the right cam with the right firing order, I think later 302s had a different fireing order, maybe some of the Ford Gurus can help me out.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2013, 07:40 PM
Faith - Respect - Trust
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ontario
Age: 59
Posts: 3,508
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 192
Thanked 638 Times in 572 Posts
All I can offer is an opinion...the picture you're showing is of the 302 I assume. My feeling is that if a guy goes to the trouble of installing roller rockers it may have a bunch of other neat stuff inside. Do a tare down, see what you've got and what you can use. The 302 may be stronger than you think if the color and condition of the rockers is any indication, what was done to the engine hasn't got many miles on it. Taking it apart costs nothing but time and maybe a few dollars to tag and bag what you take apart. 475 to 500 HP is a pretty stout engine.

Ray
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2013, 07:44 PM
Mac88's Avatar
"Drive It Until It Breaks"
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: North Carolina
Age: 40
Posts: 192
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re

I was thinking the same thing when I removed the valve covers. As far as the 475-500, I know that may be a little high for a 302, but I've been told it's very possible and I want to build it once and get it right. I've talked with several guys and I think I'm leaning towards just having the 302 freshened up and stick with it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2013, 08:08 PM
Faith - Respect - Trust
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ontario
Age: 59
Posts: 3,508
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 192
Thanked 638 Times in 572 Posts
You've got like what looks to be a good start, besides the rockers, I see HEI ignition, Weiand intake, Holley carb and as I mentioned, who knows whats been done to the inside. The 302 can be made to run the Horse power your hoping for, do the tare down, check to see what heads you have and what's been done them, check for numbers on the cam, what crankshaft, all these thing will help you determine what your best move is. If it is a stock 302 and only surface bolt on performance parts have been added and you want to run 475 to 500 Horse Power...it may well be worth referring back to old adage of there's no replacement for displacement (not necessarily the 351W, you may need a more serious displacement increase to make it worth your while, the performance parts from the 302 won't fit the Windsor anyway). Sometimes it is easier and cheaper to make the power you want if you start out with a larger CID engine...but until you tare down that 302, you won't know, maybe someone has been kind enough to do some parts shopping for you already and all you need to do is freshen it up and add some more machining to free up some power and a few more go fast parts to get to where you want to be.

Ray
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2013, 09:22 PM
Banned
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,442
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 195
Thanked 461 Times in 410 Posts
do the 302 it is a nice motor , more revs will mean a happy face for you and your son!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2013, 09:32 PM
vinniekq2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC,Canada
Age: 56
Posts: 8,644
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 364
Thanked 858 Times in 820 Posts
4.125x3.4 stroked windsor nets 363 inch windsor,,Dart pro 195 heads with 2.02s,RPM airgap,hydraulic roller cam,10:1 CR, will make an easy 450 plus HP,will rev a conservative 62-6300 rpm
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2013, 07:16 AM
Mac88's Avatar
"Drive It Until It Breaks"
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: North Carolina
Age: 40
Posts: 192
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Re

Thanks for all the replies. Think I will stick with the 302.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2013, 07:40 AM
vinniekq2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC,Canada
Age: 56
Posts: 8,644
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 364
Thanked 858 Times in 820 Posts
302=450 hp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac88 View Post
Thanks for all the replies. Think I will stick with the 302.
to get 450 hp you will need a solid roller cam,very good heads.
you can stroke the 302 to 347 for a more drive able street engine.
If you insist on using a 302,aim for 380 plus HP
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2013, 01:29 PM
Mac88's Avatar
"Drive It Until It Breaks"
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: North Carolina
Age: 40
Posts: 192
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks for the advice. Just out of curiousty, if the 302 was stroked to a 347, since it's still smaller than the 351W, would the stock 351W out perform it?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2013, 01:56 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: surrey bc canada
Age: 74
Posts: 657
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
302

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac88 View Post
Thanks for the advice. Just out of curiousty, if the 302 was stroked to a 347, since it's still smaller than the 351W, would the stock 351W out perform it?
no stay with the 302,best choise would be 331 which is better choice,as 347s have oil consumpt isues,the 302 with 331 rotating *** is a screamer.havea budy with 347 and it isok but not like the 331s.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2013, 03:28 PM
techinspector1's Avatar
Senior Curmudgeon
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hemet, California, USA
Age: 72
Posts: 13,310
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 838
Thanked 1,151 Times in 950 Posts
In my opinion (been there, done that), you will be very unhappy after about 10 minutes of driving a small displacement, high rev motor and that's what you will have to build to get any power out of a 5 liter mill, rev it to the moon. You'll have to cam hell out of it along with gears and loose converter or 5-speed manual and the cam will require big heads and an operating range of maybe 3500-7500 rpms and that'll require a high-buck valvetrain. Like I said, it'll be big fun for about 10 minutes. Then it'll just be a pain in the ***. Something else that's fun for about 10 minutes is a transmission shift kit in a street driver.

Begin your project with the biggest motor you can bolt into the car easily. To me, that would mean a stroker 351W, with a 4.170" arm to yield 427 cubic inches or swapping in a 460/C6. The 427 would be a piece of cake. Build it 9.5:1 to 10.0:1 static compression ratio, mild cam to match the SCR, bolt some good aluminum heads on,
Air Flow Research
an Edelbrock RPM intake, 750/850 carb, long-tube tuned headers and kick ***.
The car would be a real attention-getter with 427 badges on the fenders.

Save the 302 for stuffing into an MG roadster later on when you get tired of the Mustang.

Last edited by techinspector1; 04-12-2013 at 03:56 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2013, 05:46 PM
techinspector1's Avatar
Senior Curmudgeon
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hemet, California, USA
Age: 72
Posts: 13,310
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 838
Thanked 1,151 Times in 950 Posts
I really like to listen to a motor on the dyno. Here are some more 427W's....

I thought I'd do a DynoSim of a 427W.
Airflow Research 205 heads with ~70cc chambers (AFR says 69 in one place, 72 in another place), 2.08"/1.60" valves
Probe 19.4cc dished pistons, static compression ratio 9.94:1 (pump gas friendly with aluminum heads)
Edelbrock RPM intake manifold mounting an 850 CFM carb (750 will drop 6 hp)
Large tube headers through the mufflers

Crane retro hydraulic roller....
Good low end and mid range torque and HP, fair idle,
moderate performance usage, mild bracket racing, auto
trans w/2000+ converter, serious off road, 2800-3400
cruise RPM, 9.5 to 10.75 compression ratio advised.
Grind number HR-224/339-2S-12
Operating range 1800-5800
Part number 449601
Duration 224/232, 286/294
Lobe separation angle 112
Valve lift 0.542"/0.563"

Cam installed 6 degrees retarded on these 0.050" tappet lift numbers.....
IO (-1) BTDC
IC (45) ABDC
EO (47) BBDC
EC (5) ATDC

RPM.....HP.....TORQUE
1500....119....417
2000....172....453
2500....217....456
3000....277....484
3500....345....518
4000....410....538
4500....469....550
5000....516....542
5500....535....510
6000....524....459
6500....483....390

Max volumetric efficiency 96.1% @5000
Max BMEP 193.8 lbs @4500

A CompCams XR282RF-HR (35-425-8) made about the same power (543/540). This cam also made max power at 6 degrees retarded.
IO (3) BTDC
IC (47) ABDC
EO (46) BBDC
EC (10) ATDC

Last edited by techinspector1; 04-12-2013 at 06:16 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2013, 12:19 AM
prostreet6t9's Avatar
Differential/Driveline
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: oregon
Age: 51
Posts: 1,761
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 9
Thanked 45 Times in 42 Posts
A shift kit in a auto trans on the street is no big deal with a loose converter. The converter will soak up the hard hits till you put your foot in it. A good buddy has a 66 mustang with a 302. 10.1 motor with a good set of heads. 525 ish camshaft & 3500 stall. Runs 12.50's all day and is a piece of cake to drive on the street.

As stated... Tear the 302 down and see what ya got. If everything checks out I'd use it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-14-2013, 10:30 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: surrey bc canada
Age: 74
Posts: 657
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
302 ford

prostreet is on the right trach,for money invested ther is far more value in performance in a 289 or 302 than the 351 winsor,which is more of a tractor engine,and far more expensive to build into a performer.the c4 with a shift kit is a goodstep as well.my last build was a 302 with a c6 with shift kit.it worked well for a street machine.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Hotrodding Basics posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
93 mustang build Michael 9111 Hotrodding Basics 7 03-25-2012 07:51 PM
1989 mustang build oregonmustang Introduce Yourself 1 03-13-2011 04:34 PM
'69 Mustang Build Chevy 84 Engine 16 01-21-2011 06:13 PM
how to build a mustang II crossmember plowboy_m Suspension - Brakes - Steering 9 02-06-2010 03:53 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.