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Old 10-08-2004, 12:19 AM
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700R4/4L60/4L60E (long)

This is a very lengthy post and I apologize in advance. I respect the opinions of the hotrodders and tranny guys here who take the time to answer a novice’s questions. I am an old hotrodder in both senses (age, and technology) but, I do like some of the high tech stuff. Exmaple: GM's EFI and electronic trannys, the 4L60E to be specific. I have researched this board and many other boards for the last 8 months or so, and I have come to one conclusion NO ONE can agree on how to build, (what parts to use) a solid street, occasional strip tranny that will also be used for towing. I am a novice at building trannys, and I think I may have overdone it, but here is my scenario: a 3500lb vehicle with an mild EFI engine (350hp, 350lb/ft) through a 4L60E to a 12-bolt rearend.

Here is a parts list going into the 93 - 4L60E tranny.

Super Master Rebuild Kit
- Borg Warner Reverse Clutches and Raybestos Steels
- Borg Warner Forward Clutches and Overrun Clutches, all with Raybestos Steels
- Borg Warner "Hi-Energy" 2-4 band
* - Borg Warner 3/4 "High Energy" Clutches
- Borg Warner Lo-Reverse Clutches and Raybestos Steels
- Viton input-output shaft seal
- "Vette" style servo
- Teflon coated pump bushing
- All papers,gaskets,o-rings,etc
- Pan gasket
- Filter

* - Raybestos X-32 single sided 3/4 clutches (Z-Pack)

TransGo Shift kit (TG-4L60E-HD2)
- .500 4L60E specific boost valve
- many other pieces

TransGo HiRev Pump Kit
- unbreakable rings
- pump priming spring

Other Pump Stuff
Pump Slide (10 vane)
New pump vanes (10)
Pump Rotor (10 vane)
Rotor Guide (10 vane)
Hardened Stator shaft
Rostra TCC Solenoid.
Sonnax Torque Converter Clutch solenoid snout w/anti-drainback valve
Sonnax TCC Apply Valve
Sonnax Pump Slide Pivot Pin
Sonnax Pump Slide Spring Spacer
Sonnax High Output Pump Slide Spring

Heavy Duty Borg Warner, dual cage 29-element Forward Sprag assembly

Torrington Bearing Kit
Thrust Washer Kit
Bushing Kit
Sonnax Wide Reaction Sun Gear Bushing
Sonnax Wider Rear Stator Bushing

Hi-RPM 3-4 Clutch Spring Kit
HD BEAST Sun Gear Shell with Washer

Sonnax 4th Gear Super Hold Servo Piston

24208576 Oil Filter Kit (Extended Neck) w/Gasket for use on extra deep pan.

24215535 4L60E Extra Deep Transmission Pan w/Torx Head Magnetic Drain Plug
- adds an additional 2 quarts of capacity

24210961 4L65E Hi Torque Input Sprag assembly package
- 29 element SKF sprag, overrun clutch hub, retainer
- inner & outer races, snap ring, and sun gear

24218063 4L65E Carrier Assembly, Input
8663639 Gear, Input Internal

24222756 4L65E Shaft, Reaction Carrier
24217328 4L65E Bearing Assembly, Thrust (input carrier to reaction shaft)
24227002 4L65E Carrier Assembly, Reaction
24219411 4L65E Gear, Reaction Sun
24217143 4L65E Gear, Internal Reaction
8681491 Support, Internal Reaction Gear

8681295 Reverse Input Housing

8681727 Support, Low Reverse Clutch
8673300 Race, Lo-Reverse Roller
7471008 Clutch Assembly, Lo-Reverse Roller

24205272 Bonded Steel forward piston
24200290 Bonded Steel 3-4 clutch piston
8685043 Ring, 3-4 Clutch (apply) #7
8685044 Plate, 3-4 Clutch Apply (stepped)

15320479 GM Internal Wiring Harness
10478131 GM 1-2 & 3-4 shift solenoids
24227792 GM 3-2 shift solenoid
24212327 GM Pressure Control Solenoid
24219581 GM Pressure Switch Manifold

Sonnax Reverse piston capsule
Sonnax Servo release check valve
Sonnax Forward reverse abuse bore plug
Sonnax Accumulator valve train assembly
Sonnax Enhanced Performance 1-2 Accumulator Spring (5)
Sonnax Pin-less Forward Accumulator Piston Kit and Seal Kit
Sonnax Pin-less Accumulator Piston Kit

24202310 L35 GM Torque Converter
Stacked plate cooler with fan

My question is, will the 2001 - 2004 4L65E (M32) internals listed above fit in my 93 4L60E? Please make any comments/suggestions about my “rebuild package”.

Regards
Hotrod55man

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Old 10-08-2004, 05:46 AM
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made my head spin.

like you said thats a LONG post....


Tazz


Rat Rods Rule!
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Old 10-08-2004, 09:21 AM
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Cool

All of this response is simply my opinion;

Many parts you list are un-needed or listed twice. Perhaps I mis-understand the listing

the Z pack comes with application specific pressure plates as an example..... you also list various OE pressure 3-4 plates.

Use a babbit pump bushing

If you are listing the OE deeper steel pan that is used on most trucks?? Use the correct deeper filter for the pan.

All 4L65E hard parts in the gear train will replace your 93 parts.

Do not use the Sonnax servo check valve assembly.

Use a t-400 coasting band servo spring in place of the OE return spring on the band servo.

Use the dual guide sprag assembly you mention.

Many guys cut grooves in the rear internal gear for better oiling to the rear planetary unit.

I am sure you know the 4L65E pump , input shaft items will not function in your tranny , although they will bolt in.

Internal pump clearance is the key to pressure stability.

The weak link I do not see you adressing is the aluminum input drum splines where the input shaft presses in. The drum splits in various places under a heavy foot with horsepower & torque.

Good luck
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Old 10-08-2004, 07:42 PM
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Crosley,

Thanks for the quick response!! This is good stuff to know. Your response has prompted several other questions.

The Z-Pack is my choice, the other 3/4 clutch and steel setup comes with the overhaul kit.

Where do I find a babbit pump bushing? Why is this better than a teflon coated bushing?

The Filter is another item that comes with kit as well. I intend on using GM part 24208576 Oil Filter Kit (Extended Neck) w/Gasket for use on extra deep pan. I believe this is correct??

Is the Sonnax servo check valve assembly a wrong/bad part to use?

What is this? Where does it go? Is there a part number? "t-400 coasting band servo spring in place of the OE return spring on the band servo"

"Many guys cut grooves in the rear internal gear for better oiling to the rear planetary unit" Is there an example I can see of this somewhere.

"The weak link I do not see you adressing is the aluminum input drum splines where the input shaft presses in. The drum splits in various places under a heavy foot with horsepower & torq"

Is there a modification to the existing part that can help this since the 4L65E input shaft and drum won't work?

Many Thanks
HotRod55Man
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Old 10-09-2004, 12:52 PM
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Cool

You also do not mention the controller or programing that will be used for this set-up. Some non OE programs bump the pressures inside the tranny based off an OE sized boost valve in the 4L60E.

When a larger boost valve is added , you can get much higher pressures than needed and excessive pump wear is the result.

I Posted a couple of pics for groove cutting for oiling in planetarys...some guys do this , others think it is bunk/un-needed

hope the photos are self eggsplianitory.

Right gear is sun gear for drive shell.... left gear is sun gear for the front planetary




this photo is the reverse input piston. Plugg the OE hole ( too large) and drill another on oppisite side of piston use .050 drill or so.

TransGo kits come with little pluggs that do the same thing. Follow TransGo instructions ( read the instructions twice then start)

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Old 10-09-2004, 07:54 PM
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The Controller/PCM is a stock GM piece, service #16197427. I'll be using a modified BYJL BIN to burn my EEPROM. I've been burning my own chips for about 2 years. Still learnin what and what not to do. Haven't fried an engine yet!!

For the moment I plan on leaving the trans section of the EEPROM stock until I get the unit shifting the way I want it with just valve body and servo tweaking. Then I'll proceed to adjusting up/down shift points.



In your pictures;

Are you refering to the notches cut into the gears going from to the teeth towards the inside? Are there two notches on each gear?

Does the Sonnax Reverse piston capsule do the same thing as the transgo pieces you mentioned?



I'm still curious about the following?

1. Where do I find a babbit pump bushing? Is this better than a teflon coated bushing?

2. Is the Sonnax servo check valve assembly a wrong/bad part to use?

3. What is the t-400 coasting band servo spring ? Where does it go? Is there a part number? Where do I find it?

4. Input shaft/drum modification. I found a post way back discussing a modication by pressing a support onto the drum where the two are joined. The parts are available on ebay. Is this a good mod?

Still lots of questions, thanks for being so patient.

Thanks
HotRod55Man
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Old 10-09-2004, 10:07 PM
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The t-400 coasting band servo spring is a used part you will have to locate from a tranny shop. It replaces the return spring that is on the 2-4 band servo on the side of the tranny case. The T-400 piece has twice the compressed tension to aid in pushing OFF the band during the 2-3 shift.

The notches are what I am speaking of in the photo of the gears Sorry I was unclear. These gears ride against torrington bearings. The notches allow oil to exscape out towards the planetary gears for additional lube & cooling

Yes the transGo capsul does the same deal on the pistons for the reverse input drum. The hole must be reduced in size to prevent failure of the reverse input clutch. GM corrected this little item later model years , I do the mod to all reverse input pistons

Babbit bushing is more forgiving than the teflon lined bushing. I have seen the teflon worn off in short time in an older application. As stuff gets older I guess the alignment of engine to tranny is not as good like new from the factory.

The Sonnax check valve can cause a burned band. I stopped using them a year ago. The idea behind them is to force more oil to the 3-4 clutches during the 2-3 shift.

The Sonnax check valve has an oil hole that is sized for the 553 or 554 servo piston or re-sized for the vette servo piston. I tried increasing the hole to reduce band burning and I gave up. I do not use them now. Simply my experience, perhaps I over looked something.

A stock controller / programing will be fine with the larger boost valve .

The 4L65E input shaft and pump stator are longer. GM changed the design of the 4L60E input shaft , stator shaft length , and the converter in 1999 ( hope I got the year right) with the 3 piece case 4L60E. These parts will NOT retro fit to your 2 piece case tranny & function . They will not physically fit inside the bell housing and bolt to the engine.

There are actually 2 different length / depth bell housings( early & late) for the 3 peice case 4L60E tranny. Your 1993 is not a 3 piece case so the 4L65E parts will not fit & bolt to the engine

There is also some minor changes in oil circuits for the PWM lockup converter now in use that your 1993 4L60E does not have.

There is a simple method to beef up the splined area of the aluminum input drum, It is a trade secret I will not reveal. It is not fool proof and I have not seen a fool proof (non breakable) aluminum 700 drum yet
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Last edited by Crosley; 10-09-2004 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 10-10-2004, 06:53 PM
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Much more clear now. Oh yea. I may get the hang of this yet.

I'm on the search now for a babbit front pump bushing and TH400 coasting band servo spring.

I'm assuming this TH400 spring will replace item# 12 (Spring, Servo Return as listed in the GM or ASTG manual) in the 4L60E.

If I sent you an input shaft and drum would you be willing to modify them for me? You can PM me with an answer either way if you do not want to post your answer here.

***update***

Here is what I have found thus far for the TH400 coasting band servo spring;

Spring, Low & Reverse Band Servo Piston 8623666
Servo Piston Spring, Rear


Spring, 1 – 2 Band Servo Piston 8623489
Servo Piston Spring, Front


Spring, 1 – 2 Accumulator Piston 8623674, or 8625426, or 8625426
Accumulator Spring, Front


Accumulator Spring, Rear 8624256 , or 8624391, or 8655843
Spring, Low & Reverse Accumulator Piston

Is it any of these?

Many Thanks
HotRod55Man

Last edited by HotRod55man; 10-10-2004 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:36 AM
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Crosley,

Does the TH400 coasting band servo spring go by another reference designation?

Thanks
HotRod55Man
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Old 10-12-2004, 09:04 AM
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the numbers you post mean nothing to me. I have not looked at those numbers in decades. I'd have to look to see if I even have those books any longer....

the servo spring for the t-400 coasting band piston is the one to use. Walk into a tranny shop and ask for one with the old spring from the 4L60 servo to match up the size.

Avoid the chain store shops ie; AAMco & others.

Your description here seems to meet what I have been saying:

"Spring, 1 – 2 Band Servo Piston 8623489
Servo Piston Spring, Front"


=====EDIT, I found the posted number 8623489 in a GM book. that is the spring I am talking about
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Last edited by Crosley; 10-12-2004 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 10-12-2004, 11:20 PM
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Crosley,

Many Thanks

Newbies like me need all the help they can get from experienced people like you!! Maybe someday I can assist you!!

HotRod55Man
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