700r4 lost 3rd gear - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Transmission - Rearend
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2012, 07:55 PM
SSedan64's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Macon, GA.
Age: 50
Posts: 6,016
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 46 Times in 46 Posts
I'm not positive what all would need to be swapped.
From reading about the 700 shaft, it stated it could be used in the 60E/65E with the use of a different oil seal on the front end.
Looking at the 65E shaft it looks like the TC/TorqueConverter would need to have a 65E type TCC/TorqueConverterClutch installed inside an older 700/60E type TC.
The 65E was used with the LS1 engine which uses different spacing & TCC etc... By the time you build a TC it may cost as much or more than the 300M shaft.

Maybe a 700R4 builder on here will know if anything else is needed.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2012, 10:06 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 11
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
I just spoke with Nathan from PATC. They will have a 700R4 input shaft induction hardened for me for the same $89 cost as the 4L65E shaft. He was very helpful and said that he will set up a pricing structure for me that will allow me to complete my parts list within my $1,100 budget.

It's funny too, when he saw the Smart Tech drum, he thought "why the heck didn't I think of that? It's so simple." The same thing I thought.

I really can't say enough how much I appreciate your help and all the help I've received with this project. As I said before, when I had this trans built in 1999, there was no resource like the Hot Rod Forum. Sites like these, that allow us to share information and experience with each other are an awesome benefit of the web.

Now, I just need to work two more weekends and I'll have the money to order my parts and proceed with the buildup.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2013, 06:33 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 11
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Update

I haven't posted anything new on this trans project for quite a while. I've been working to save up the funds for parts. I just ordered the parts last week. The list totalled $1,600. PATC gave me a pretty decent discount which helped get it done. I feel like I've put together a pretty good gear train. I'm going to use the Smart Tech housing, a new pump, the superior servos and and extra wide band with new reverse input drum. I'll post the entire list once the trans is done and I've verified it all works the way I want it to.

I'm still working to put together a good package for my 1-2 upshift. It was harsh at light throttle before. I'm getting a new accumulator valve train from Sonnax that should allow me tune that shift down some. Right now I'm looking for the 700R4 pages that I found here before. I can't remember who wrote them. The article suggested blocking the line bias valve. Has anyone done this? What was the result? It's been suggested that this will produce harder shifts at light throttle. That it would be better to use a stiffer spring than to block the valve. Does anyone have any feedback to offer on this?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 02-12-2013, 06:40 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 11
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
BTW, I never did post up what I found on tearing down the trans. It had the Alto 9 thin frictions with 8 thin steels and they were smoked. The were so coned that the pack became a big wave washer. There was no 3-4 rev kit and one of the springs was broken. There was also a check ball for the 2nd clutch that had beaten up the case and may have stuck, which could have also caused the 3-4 burn up. I really think though that the major culprit was no rev kit and the high rev shifts. The Transgo spring kit along with the 4L65E release springs should help this. Plus, the Smart Tech housing will allow me to run thicker frictions and steels and higher apply pressure.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 03-08-2013, 10:21 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 11
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Haven't posted on this project for quite a while. It took me some time to put together all of the pieces. I am finally in the process of assembly. I have had the gear train in and out a few times fine tuning clearances and setting end play. I had a strange squeaking noise from the rear planet carrier rubbing on the back of the center support. From studying the breakdown, I figured out that there is nothing preventing the center support resting against the rear carrier during assembly, when the unit is vertical. Once the unit is installed, the first time the L/R clutch engages, the center support will be set in place against the snap ring and the anti-clunk spring will keep it from moving back. This is rookie stuff that a real trans tech would have known. I did work on my L/R clutch stack to assure proper clearance.

Now I've got the unit assembled up to the valve body, which I'll finish after work. Yesterday I had to set the trrans aside to pull heads off of a 1999 Ford 4.6(oh so special). Today I'm diagnosing a severe bog on a 1990 Mazda Miata(will the fun never end?) I expect to have this bad boy 700R4 installed tomorrow. Once I have it running and verify all the shifts are as they should be, I'll post a parts and mod list.

Before I even go any further, I want to give special thanks to Dana at Pro Built Automatics for his tireless tech support on this project. After months of study and thinking I was ready for this build, I ended up with alot of questions and he has been there with solid answers. Thank You Dana!

Last edited by ASE Doc; 03-08-2013 at 10:27 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to ASE Doc For This Useful Post:
AutoGear (03-08-2013)
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2013, 07:12 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 11
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
The transmission is finished and back in my Beasty. From the first two road tests I am pleased so far. The 1-2 bang shift that I had hoped to resolve is gone. The 1-2 shift is firm and solid at light throttle but not harsh, and becomes progressively firmer and faster with throttle pressure. The 2-3 shift is the same way. The slushy feeling that I used to get from the 2-3 shift at mid throttle is gone and the shift feels very confident. I was concerned about having a clunky 3-2 downshift with the Superior servo but I can barely hear the click of the servo and the shift feels very good. I didn't catch on to what Dana was saying about the greater apply area of the Sonnax 4th servo over the Superior until I was already putting things together and I chose not to make the change at that time. I don't use 4th gear that much and I never drive around in D4. The 3-4 shift is the one place where I don't feel a definite improvement. I may go ahead and swap to the Sonnax 4th servo in the future.

I have not had enough road time in the car to really be sure of what actual stall speed is with the new converter. It should be about 500rpm higher. It feels very good so far but I will need to get it to the track, or at least a more remote area to really test it.

One issue that I have had on the two drives I've made is a resistance to shift from 1st gear, only on the very first shift. I have had to run the engine up to 4,500 or 5,000, perhaps a few times before it will shift to 2nd. Once the first 1-2 shift is made, the shifting is great from then on. The trans has only been on two runs and has never been to operating temp yet, so maybe this is just an issue that will resolve itself on run in. Otherwise, it may be a sticky governor and I'll have to fix it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2013, 07:49 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 11
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
I believe I promised to post a parts list when this project was completed and tested to my satisfaction. Here is that list beginning at the front of the unit.
2,800 stall converter with balloon plate
Hardened input shaft(as was used behind the LS1)
Rebuilt 10 vane pump with high rev slide spring
Sonnax line rise kit with .500 TV boost valve and stiffer spring
.300 reverse boost valve
New reverse input drum
Extra wide carbonite 2-4 band
Superior 2nd servo
Superior 4th servo
Sonnax Smart Tech input housing
Beast sun shell
All new clutches and steels including 9/.062 frictions and 8/.077 steels in the 3-4 clutch(one of the .077 steels was replaced with a .106 steel to set clearance at .050)
All new thrust washers and bearings
TCC solenoid
Dual springs in the line bias valve(the red spring from the Transgo JR shift kit and a spring from the hardware store that fit inside it)
Transgo CS7 high rev springs for the forward and 3-4 clutches

Other mods were already made to unit in the previous build and were reused including corvette governor and Transgo 3-4 shift valve.

Last edited by ASE Doc; 03-11-2013 at 07:55 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2013, 12:27 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 11
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Same old same old.

After 6 months of good shifting, my 700R4 is losing 3rd gear again. I'm trying to put together the events leading up to this new failure. I haven't been running it hard lately. I've been aware that my 60 -80 mph 6,300 rpm 2-3 upshifts may draw the wrong kind of attention and I haven't made it to the strip yet this year. The times that I have made hard shifts between 2-3 and 3rd didn't seem to have any ill effect when I checked fluid condition later. The trans has shifted beautifully since I built it, before and after hard shifting it. The one thing that I have been doing lately though is more highway cruising in OD, letting the trans auto shift into 3rd as needed for acceleration. In town, when I don't feel like manual shifting, I run in 3rd and let the trans auto shift 1,2 and 3 as needed. Just last week I noticed that my 2-3 shift was getting slushy. It had been as firm and solid as the 1-2 shift. I have also felt it binding between 2nd and 3rd(engaging the 3-4 clutch while the 2-4 band was still applied).

Then, Saturday on the way home from a short highway trip, the trans refused to shift into 3rd gear all together. I had 1-2, and no 3. Then after a mile or two limping along in 2nd, I tried 3rd and it engaged. This morning, on the way to work, the trans actually dropped 3rd gear while under way. It had engaged 3rd and 4th and I was cruising at about 60 when it just lost drive. I slowed down and dropped to 2nd and tried repeatedly and unsuccessfully to engage 3rd. I limped it to the shop in 2nd and after checking the fluid level(fluid now smelling burnt), I went to park the car and had 3rd again. I plan to drop the pan after work and check things out. I'm concerned about the 3rd clutch check ball pocket in the case. This pocket was beat up pretty good by the steel check ball they had used in the last build. I hoped that the new separator plate and torlon check ball would work out but I'm afraid that maybe the check ball is getting lodged by the damaged area and sticking. I may need to address the case damage. Otherwise, there are any number of possible causes I guess. Cross leak , lip seal, sticking valvetrain, etc.

Any of you 700R4 experts out there who have dealt with this behavior, I would greatly appreciate any input you have. It will make a short summer if I have to garage the Beast and drive my beater for a while but so be it. I'm not thrilled at the idea of having to rebuild the unit again so soon. I was planning on going back in to install a 5 pinion rear planet and a viton input shaft/output shaft seal next winter. Maybe next winter has come in the middle of July.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2013, 05:53 PM
jokerZ71's Avatar
Wrench Turner
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Stanton,Tn.
Age: 52
Posts: 1,835
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 115
Thanked 316 Times in 283 Posts
Check the TPS. A bad or inconsistant signal will cause you to appear to lose 3rd & OD.It will cause harsh shifts & slam when shifting from neutral or park.It will also cause gear seeking.You can be cruising @ 60 in 3rd or OD & trans will drop back to 2nd or even quit pulling all together.When it stops pulling in 3rd or OD,let off the accelerator & ease or feather back into it.It can then pick the gear up again.TPS controls your shiftpoints,TC lockup,line psi,etc.Probe the TPS wires with engine off.Readin should be near 0 @ closed throttle.Have someone slowly openthrottle & watch the meter.Voltage should steadily increase up to near 5 volts @ WOT.No spikes or flat spots.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2013, 09:07 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 11
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanks for your response Joker. This is a 700R4, not a 4L60E. It has no electronic controls, aside from TCC lock up. I know what you mean though about the affect of TPS voltage on shifting in the electronic units. With this unit however, that is not the case.

I drove the car home after work yesterday, manual shifting and not using 4th gear. While 3rd gear is definitely damaged and will need the 3-4 clutches replaced again, it had no trouble losing drive in 3rd. I'm wondering if this might be an issue related to 4th gear, which also uses the 3-4 clutches. Perhaps a pressure loss somewhere. I installed the Superior 2nd and 4th servos in my build and I wonder if I might have set something wrong or damaged a piston seal. I'm still suspicious of a sticky valvetrain in the VB. I have a trans pressure test set now and this would be a good time to use it.

I plan to collect any and all parts that I can think of possibly needing, (including a set of 9 BW high energy 3-4 frictions instead of the Alto Red, and going into the unit over a weekend. That way I can do the whole job here at the shop, including the R&R. While I'm in there, I want to go ahead and replace the rear planet with an OE 5 pinion and a new rear sun gear too. That way, assuming I get everything right this time, I won't need to go back in for a good long while.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2013, 09:30 AM
jokerZ71's Avatar
Wrench Turner
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Stanton,Tn.
Age: 52
Posts: 1,835
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 115
Thanked 316 Times in 283 Posts
I definitely think somethin is up.Usually you either have a gear or not.It does just come & go unless like you said somethin is sticking,etc.If it were clutches only,i'd think 3rd & 4th would be gone regardless of manual or auto shifting.I had a 93 GMC w/ 4L60E doin the same thing.I was told by several ppl & 2 shops that it needed a rebuild.It had been parkes for 12 yrs due to this.Wasn't mine @ the time,but,left @ my home for 12 yrs.I finally bought it & got it goin plannin on a rebuild.Slammed when put into gear.1 to 2 shift harsh & extended if in D or OD.2nd to 3rd was just like shiftin into neutral.No 3rd or 4th.Then 1 day I was workin on some other problems & suddenly,bam,it shifted into 3rd'then rite into 4th.After bout half a mile it would either stop pulling or jump back to 2nd.I noticed that it would seem to mess up whenever I pushed down accelerator to a certain spot.Unplugged TPS & it shifted like a new truck.All 4 gears.Bought a new 1 & adjusted it becuz this is the 6.2 diesel.Haven't had an issue to date.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2013, 01:34 PM
jokerZ71's Avatar
Wrench Turner
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Stanton,Tn.
Age: 52
Posts: 1,835
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 115
Thanked 316 Times in 283 Posts
How is your TC doing as far as locking & unlocking? Does it unlock if you accelerate while in 3rd or 4th easily,or,do you have to really get on it befor it will unlock?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2013, 01:37 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 11
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
It's possible that I put the 4th servo piston in backwards and that it is bypassing fluid when fully extended. Frustrating thing is that all gears shifted firm and solid after the build. This trans is built to take 450 hp behind my small block and hold gears to 6,500rpm. I wonder if maybe it doesn't like cruising along in OD so much. It has the transgo 3-4 valvetrain that's supposed to prevent shuttle shifting between 3 and 4 and early 4th apply. I did notice though that lately, when I try to accelerate just a little in 4th, the trans seemed to be slipping, like it was trying to downshift but wasn't completing the shift. I thought at the time it was just the TC slipping. That's part of what makes me wonder if I have a pressure loss in 4th. Low pressure in 4th will damage the 3-4 clutch pack before it damages the extra wide carbon 2-4 band I have in there. I'll find out just what's been damaged when I tear it down. The band is only about $25 so I'll have one on hand. Also thinking about going to the Sonnax 4th servo.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2013, 02:19 PM
jokerZ71's Avatar
Wrench Turner
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Stanton,Tn.
Age: 52
Posts: 1,835
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 115
Thanked 316 Times in 283 Posts
You said you had been doin a lot more average drivin this time.If the TC isn't unlocking during acceleration in 3rd or 4th,it can create enuff heat to burn the 3/4 clutches.Also excessive locking & unlocking can do the same.Again,not to sound like a broke record,but,your TPS can have a direct effect on this as it still controls the TCC solenoid.If voltage is low or hi.Leakageanas you stated can also create heat.The fact that you can pick up 3rd sometimes or lose it during drive just has me thinkin somethin besides just worn clutches is goin on.I think you definitely got a pressure problem somewhere wether it's a leak,sticky governor,or somethin bypassing fluid.It sounds like you got all the best mods already.if TC doesn't unlock when accelerating in 3rd or 4th soon enuff,you surely could be burnin up 3/4 clutches.With the power you have,it would be less noticeable to you than the average driver.That's where your TPS & correct adjustment is critical.For best results,it should unlock almost as soon as acceleration is detected rather than havin to mash halfway to the floor before unlocking.IDK that I'm explaining this very well as I'm not too good @ transferrin mind to keyboard.LOL.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2013, 02:25 PM
jokerZ71's Avatar
Wrench Turner
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Stanton,Tn.
Age: 52
Posts: 1,835
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 115
Thanked 316 Times in 283 Posts
The effects would also show up more & faster with normal driving than driving driving hard.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to jokerZ71 For This Useful Post:
ASE Doc (07-25-2013)

Recent Transmission - Rearend posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TH 350 lost 3rd gear and reverse is weak junior stocker Transmission - Rearend 1 05-29-2009 04:20 PM
700R4 lost 3rd gear. Crazy-J Transmission - Rearend 6 12-20-2004 09:44 AM
91 Caravan lost 3rd/4th gear tm454 Transmission - Rearend 8 01-01-2004 02:57 PM
lost 3rd gear on th 350 Hot_Rod_Faith Transmission - Rearend 13 12-28-2003 12:39 PM
700r4 3rd gear? Mustang_Killa66 Transmission - Rearend 3 03-23-2003 05:32 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.