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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2013, 05:47 PM
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Second thought. I will definitely have the pump assembled by a professional. No more screwing around with it. It makes perfect sense that the pump was off. Even just a little. It may have just been a little tight at first. Not enough to really notice on assembly but then once the shaft started wearing with the uneven support, the wear was accelerated. I'll just take my high rev slide spring in with the pump and have someone put it together for me. Right now, I'm assembling the gear train and clutches up to the front pump. Then I'll put my TCC wiring together and work on cooler lines.
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Old 10-27-2013, 11:17 AM
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Got things assembled up to the pump. I feel good about everything at this point. Took extra care to be sure that the plugs in the separator plate were ground flat. Installed, removed and reinstalled the pistons in the input housing a few times to be sure no lip seals were rolled over. I did find one rolled on the OR clutch piston on tear down. OR clutches are fine though. I also am pretty sure that I got the 4th servo in backwards. That would cause fluid to bypass the lip seal and create soft 4th shifts. I don't know if it's even possible to put in backward but when I looked at the servo stack up last night, I swear it was in the housing backward. Maybe I just did that yesterday after teardown and don't remember. I installed a pre assembled Sonnax dual piston Superhold 4th servo this time so won't be an issue.

3-4 clutch clearance is a little more than before and more than Probuilt recommends. I did'nt have the right combination of steels to make .040 -.050, .060 is as close as I could get. It's at the minimum of what ATSG recommends for stock rebuild. I know that tighter is supposed to give faster shifts but after burning the last set of clutches, I think I like the idea of more oil clearance when the pack is disengaged for better cooling. With the pressures I should be running now with the line bias blocked, I think I'll still have pretty good shifts. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? If I need to pull the housing back out to change things I will. I can get a thicker steel when I pick up the new pump tomorrow.

I was thinking about this thing yesterday after I broke for the night. The way the input shaft is worn uneven, it almost has to be bent. I know that I put quite a bit of pressure on it seating it in the housing when I assembled it last year. My press is a sad HF cheapy with a sprung frame from people overloading it. I wasn't sure about using it for this job last year but I went ahead when I couldn't find anyone close who had a good press. I wonder if I could have bent the shaft. That would take alot of force wouldn't it. You would also think if it was bent I would have gotten a vibration at speed. I was much more careful with the new shaft yesterday. If I have issues with this new shaft, I will get the assembly into a lathe and spin it with a dial indicator against it to check for runout before I do anything more.

I figured out my TCC controls as well. I can't use a 3rd clutch pressure switch but I can use a 2nd clutch switch. Using a NC dual pole switch in the ground circuit to the solenoid will disable TCC in 2nd so that using my dash mounted switch(old fog light switch), I can have lock up in 3rd and 4th or just in 4th by selecting switch position. I'm getting it wired up right now and also getting my new 3/8" cooler lines bent and installed. Sure wish I had that new pump, but patience is a virtue right? Got a 27hr engine job coming in tomorrow so between that and getting this project done, it could be a long day.

Thanks to Crosley and dwwl for all your help on this so far. It's nice to atleast share my greif, frustration and victory(if in fact it ends up being that) with other fellow wrench turners. I hope someone can chime in on the 3-4 clutch pack clearance for me. Thanks
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2013, 07:15 AM
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Use a low roller clutch assembly snap ring. Its thicker than the 3-4 clutch snap ring, you need to cut an inch off one of the ends to make it fit. Do a Google search for 700r4 pump slide clearance, then scroll down some an look for 4l60 an 4l60e rebuild something or the other, its from uscars you really need to look at this. I had this in an above post but might of put the address in wrong. Its a PDF docm. I wish I would of know about this when I rebuild mine. Let me know if you found it.

Last edited by dogwater; 10-28-2013 at 07:25 AM.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2013, 07:57 AM
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Thanks dogwater. I will try again to find that pdf. I couldn't find it before. My input housing doesn't take a 3-4 snap ring. It's a trick(read as pricey) Sonnax peice with a bolt on backing plate. With the shorter 3-4 apply ring(stamped "7") it has 1.2"+ of 3-4 clutch capacity. Tha's why I paid so much for it. Now I'm really hoping I didn't ruin it by pressing the shaft into it with my crappy crooked press. I'll see how this other shaft wears. If the housing is ruined, I'll just buy another one. I like it that much. Maybe Sonnax will help me out some if I do need a new one.

Got my TCC wiring done. Very cool. The OE fog light switch, in the on position, now provides a steady ground on pin D of the TCC connector, which will provide an alternative ground path to the TCC solenoid, except when the 2nd clutch switch is open, which will break the circuit. With the switch off, the TCC will be grounded by the 4th clutch switch. So, with the switch on, I'll have TCC lockup in 3rd and 4th. With the switch off, I'll have lock up in 4th only. With a double throw switch, I could also have no TCC lockup at all, but I can't think of when I would ever want that. The car will do 170 in 3rd. Don't ask me how I know that.

Also got my new 3/8 cooler lines run and my new cooler assembly put together. I am using two Hayden 1405 coolers. One in front of the other, attached to the front of the radiator core. The hot fluid enters at the top of the rear cooler and cool fluid exits at the bottom of the front cooler. It should really drop heat. The lines aren't as pretty as I would have liked. The routing was tough. At the end of bending each line, I had to make bends with the lines mostly routed in place as they wouldn't go in once the bends were all made. But no kinks and pretty decent looking anyway. The larger tubes will flow better providing improved cooling and more lube flow. Also will slow down flow through the cooler system which means even more heat drop.

Now that it's Monday, I've got to get the motor pulled on a customer's car to start the reseal and get the trans in it ready to go out for overhaul(not going to mess with anyone's trans but my own). Then, I have to get to Portland before PTW closes to get my new pump. I'm going to see if they will install the high rev spring for me. Hopefully they have one on hand so it can be done and ready for pick up.

Thanks again to everyone for all of your help.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2013, 08:03 AM
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dogwater, I tried to find that site again and no luck.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2013, 09:59 AM
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Like your idea of running two coolers. I'm running two single pass tube coolers on mine because I believe its more effective and not running it threw the radiator. I' lowering mine a little because might have a problem with them bleeding back into the pan. When that happens, it over flows out the fill tube seal. Would like to give a little more advise on your project, but have never worked on the 700's.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2013, 12:46 PM
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Hi dwwl, I decided to follow your lead and I'll pick up an alignment tool for the pump along with the pump this afternoon. That way I can do the alignment myself and do it right. My buddy who does these units alot and runs them in 9 second cars says he just uses the case to align the pump but I'm still nervous about it.

Oh, and I just figured something out too. The reason why my input shaft got worn uneven and so quick. When the 3-4 clutches burned up, most of the friction material was peeled right off. This left about .200 clearance in the pack. Enough so that the locating tabs of the pressure plate were able to lift off of the apply ring and the pressure plate side stepped in the housing. This would have applied side force against the housing which was communicated to the shaft and bushings in the stator support. I remember at one point the trans seemed to get stuck between 2nd and 3rd, as if both clutches were applied at once. It was just that the 3-4 pressure plate was wedged against the pack. The pressure plate seems to be fine, aside from a slight witness mark on one side that indicates it ran against the input ring gear for a moment. The ring looks fine also. Lucky. Of course I'm not discounting that the converter may have gone south and contributed to this side loading also.

Last edited by ASE Doc; 10-28-2013 at 12:55 PM.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2013, 07:44 PM
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I had though about using a parts tranny to set my pump in to to do the pump, But I had this funny looking big wide one inch band that I gotten years ago off of an old sign and kept it. Know I have it with my tranny tools so I don't ruin it or use it and ruin it. When I rebuilt mine, old tranny guy told me to act like your stupid. and check everything twice, and then question yourself as to why you did it. Seriously, I put mine together and then found a part. I had to take it back down and set it all back up in the correct order again and then reassemble. Seals have to be correct. Air test your tranny as you assemble. I enjoyed it so much that I rebuilt another one and I modified it also. I was lucky on both of my pumps I rebuilt. They were in real good shape and tight. I rebuilt them with 10 vane kits with the steel rings and relieved them. The two best trannys I had were low mile units. One was out of an old monte carlo an old lady wrecked with 60 k miles. The other was sitting for the last 20 years in a garage on the shelf. The other two were for better words, junk, but came in handy for parts. When you get it done. Drop use a line back on this cite and let us know.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2013, 06:24 AM
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Try this, type it just like this ATRF - 4L60 Rebuild (GM700R4).pdf- US Cars
It has clear color pictures & shows how to measure the clearences for the pump. There seems to be more info. than what the ATGS manual had in it. Its 184 pages. I haven't been thru all of it yet.
Now I'm worried about my pump because Other than running both sides of the pump over some 400 gr. I just used all new parts in it then put it back together.

Last edited by dogwater; 10-29-2013 at 06:35 AM.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2013, 06:37 AM
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Baby steps. I had a mostly successful afternoon running to Portland. Picked up a great looking rebuilt pump. It's done by Oregon Converter who are the go to guys for converters in our area. It's a beautiful piece with heat treated rotor and slide and already had the high rev slide spring installed so I didn't have to wrestle with it. It also has the triple lip front seal and PTFE bushing. I installed the Transgo steel rings from the PK700 kit. The stator support is heat treated with teflon coated rear bushing and PTFE front bushing. Gorgeous part for the price. I also picked up the alignment tool so no more guessing.

Now the bad news. It is also a bare bones pump, meaning that it comes with no valves installed. The counter guy tried to warn me that it's best to keep the core until you're all done but in a moment of cheapness I just couldn't let that $30 core deposit go. I did manage to grab the regulator valve stem and I kept my big boost valves and high rate reg spring. I realized way too late that the pump is not complete. Now I have to beg a local trans shop to let me rifle through an old pump for the parts I'm missing. Good thing I have some good parts to barter with. Also, it doesn't look like the TCC valvetrain or pressure relief valves changed through the years so early or late pump will do.

This all means that here it is Tuesday and my car is still on the rack. Fortunately work is slow so it shouldn't be in the way today. I hope to have it out tomorrow morning after one more late night and early morning. I already work 5 am to 5 pm Monday through Friday so atleast I'm somewhat used to the long hours. I really do love doing these projects on my Beasty, but this isn't how this job was meant to go. Then again, what project ever does go as planned. I do feel good though that this job is really coming together well. This should be a solid unit this go round. I will take my time and pressure test before it goes anywhere.

More good news, I did get the thicker steel I needed to correct 3-4 clutch clearance. It's set now at .045 which is right at middle of the range suggested by Pro Built Automatics. I also got the NC dual pole pressure switch I needed to complete my TCC wiring. Baby steps but still progress.

I will post my pressure test results for a before and after comparo and let you know how it all went.
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Old 10-29-2013, 09:04 AM
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Your getting there. It took me months to finalize my project. I'm driving it and still working on it. Not to be a liar, I know that i'll have that pan off a couple more times before i'm done. Make sure you have that drain plug installed in the pan, it will safe you a big headache down the road. It also gives you the option to change fluid down the road without the big hassle.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2013, 12:13 PM
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I've thought about a drain plug but you know it's not that hard to drop the pan. Plus that way you're right there where you can change the filter and you can see how much material you're getting in the pan. Here at the shop, we have the nice transmission drain funnels. Not that I don't still splash a little here and there but on the 700R4s the pan is a nice shape that's not too hard to control.

I'm going to be dropping a 4L60E off at the local transmission shop at the end of work today. Like I said, I only do my own. Plus the electronic units have a whole other set of issues that I don't want to deal with. Alan at Action Transmission in Lafayette has some junk 700R4 pumps in his scrap. He's going to pull the TCC valvetrain and pressure relief valves out out of one for me. I'm going to give him my vette 2nd servo, Superior 4th servo, and the 2,600 stall converter I bought for $400 last year. The converter was not right for my car to begin with and was a half measure. Now it's full of junk from the meltdown and will have to be cut open, checked and cleaned before it can be used again. Or, it can just be turned in as a core. If I keep it here, it will collect dust until I get tired of tripping over it and toss it in the scrap bin. I hate clutter and I'd rather toss it and chalk it up as a lesson than look at it everyday.

If I think too much about all of the parts I've bought, installed and tossed later to replace with something better, I just get sad. Not to mention the many many hours I've spent. So I just go drive my Beasty and remember why I do all of this.

Hopefully I'll have the trans together tonight and started going in. I do need to sleep though too so I may not get it installed until morning. I really hope to have it finished and safely home in the garage by tomorrow night. My awesome sexy wife has now had a real taste of what it is to be a car widow. She wasn't with me back when I built this car in 99. Since Friday morning, she has seen me only getting up early in the am to head off and coming home late at night to SSS and sleep. She did get to buy a new car this weekend

If I had a better shop set up at home, I might do more there. Maybe when I retire. I'm spoiled having been a pro for so many years. Having such great tools and working in a dry warm shop with good lighting, lifts and awesome air pressure(even though air tools never touch my Beasty). I just can't hardly stand working in my cold dark and ill equipped garage at home. I have minimal tools there and I always run into things I need from the shop at work. The average small job means several trips back and forth between the shop and home. My little beater run about ends up with the back end full of tools that take me 15 minutes to clean and put away at the finish.
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Old 10-29-2013, 03:52 PM
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Had to deliver the 4L60E before lunch. Got my pump parts and got the pump assembled and installed over my lunch break. Sweet! I noticed too that being aligned with the band, the pump went in much easier.
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Old 10-30-2013, 10:44 AM
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The results are in. I got the unit installed and running last night. Pressures look much better, though still not what I was hoping for. Cold pressures are great, then as the unit warms up, the pressures come down. An indication that my pump clearances are too large. I didn't have time to set clearances as I needed to get the car off the lift. I will buy another pump and take the time to set it up, then swap it out when it's ready. I also want to see higher base line pressure to insure good 3-4 apply pressure at low throttle cruise. I just don't feel like 90-100 psi is enough. I am going to look into a stiffer regulator valve spring to bring that up some.

Pressure readings cold are as follows:
P,N,D at 1000rpm, min TV- 100psi, R- 180psi, 1 & 2- 190psi

At 2,000rpm part throttle, P,N,D- 120psi, R- 220psi, 1 & 2- 220psi

Max line pressure in all gears 260-270psi.

Warm readings come down to 90psi at min TV in P,N,D at 1000rpm, R- 150psi, 1 & 2- 160psi

Pressures come right up by 2,000rpm and max out at 250-260 warm. Definitely enough to shift and hold clutches with confidence.

One more thing is the TCC. On my test drive this morning I didn't get lock up in 3rd or 4th with the switch in either position. I may have a bad solenoid or some issue in the wiring. I may also just have the control parameters in calmap set too narrow. I will hook up the laptop and check that out on the way home tonight. I can test for control power and ground to the solenoid from under the dash and hood while driving. I will do this if I don't have any success with changing parameters.

I expect the new cooler design will dramatically reduce fluid temp and between that and getting this TCC to work, I shouldn't have anymore high temp failure issues like what happened to me last summer. I also drilled 5 small holes around the input housing just below the 3-4 backing plate to provide for fluid movement through the clutches for better cooling. The bolt on backing plate doesn't allow for any fluid bleed at all in that area.


I want to see min pressure at 120 and max at 270 or 280 warm. I hope that by properly setting up pump clearance as suggested I will improve warm pressures. Some pressure drop is to be expected with an aluminum case and steel rotor as the aluminum expands more than the steel. I just think it could be better if the clearances were just right. I'm still not real comfortable flat sanding the case as I don't know how to keep it true that way. I will speak with a machinist about it and see if they have a way to cut it down with greater precision while keeping surface finish smooth for proper sealing. It's worth it to me to pay them to get it perfect.

I'm also going to look into the B&M shift kits. They have one kit where it appears that only a PR spring is used to bump pressure up. It is obviously a stiff spring. This spring will hopefully get my base line pressure up where I want it. I am just crazy enough to even go spring shopping at the machine supply. If I can just find one that has the same compression range and is just a bit stiffer, I'm not above trying it out to see what it does to pressure. I am even thinking about the .570 boost and .400rev/int boost valves as an option.

I see now why some guys put trans pressure gauges in their vehicles. It could get to be an obsession looking for the perfect pressures.

All in all, the trans is great, the shifts are solid and quick and the Sonnax 4th servo is a winner. The 4th shift is now solid so that you feel it in the small of your back. The 3,500 stall Edge converter really puts the torque to the wheels, as evidenced by the 100ft black marks on the street in front of the shop. Thanks again to everyone for all of the help on this project. It is excellent, even if not yet perfect. And isn't the pursuit of perfection why we build hotrods anyway?
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Old 10-30-2013, 01:06 PM
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You've got some of the right ideas. Its ok to check tranny pressures and think your good. The real test is to see what your pressures are really like after you've had that vehicle out running for five to ten miles or farther. If it drops a lot, you can imagine what its like when it gets real hot. I know my friends think i'm crazy about my tranny and can't figure why I've done the things they wouldn't attempt.
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