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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 05:06 PM
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Mine was shifting fine, but I wanted more. Don't know why. Thought that removing that spring would give me something extra. Now I have to go back in and put that spring back in. My motor doesn't rev high. It would but i'm not going to push it that high. My nova is in real good shape and I don't want to shake it to much. I don't intend to drag it or anything. Its been my toy ever since I bought it new. I'm the only one who has ever driven it. I would like to figure out how too use my column shifter so I could get into manual low, but that is another problem.

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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 06:05 PM
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My IROC Z28 has been to the dragstrip once. That was the day that the 3-4 clutches, which were already on their way out, finally went. I don't have any qualms about hammering on the drivetrain, but then I built every part of the car(except for the poor abused rear axle) to be extra tough. I also love and cherish the car and have no problem building and rebuilding any part that has an issue. I also only drive it 3-4K miles a year so I don't wear it out with alot of commuter miles. It is not a classic like your Nova but it is a beautiful car and I love it. I've had it since 98. It will be 30 years old in a few more years.

I love the way the trans shifts now, since the soft light throttle 1-2 shift is fixed. I will work on the TV shim a little more to get it just right, to bring the full throttle 1-2 shift back to where I want it. And go back to the drilled 4th accum piston to correct the shift hesitation. The more I think about the TCC lock up, the better I feel about it. This Edge converter is really well designed. It drives just like a stock stall at light throttle cruise. Therefore, cruising in 3rd on city streets, it really shouldn't cause too much trouble not having TCC lock up. As far as having full time lock up in 4th, I decided after the last 3-4 clutch meltdown not to let the trans auto shift between 3rd and 4th and to only use 4th above 60mph for cruising at light throttle. If I need to accelerate more than just a little, I manually downshift into 3rd.

This is not a stock transmission or a stock vehicle and I needn't be trying to drive it like one. With that shifting practice, increased line pressure, and a super duty fluid cooler, I shouldn't have any more issues with clutch durability. The next set of upgrades to this trans, way off in the future after I build the new motor, would be updating all of the thrust washers to bearings. The later (4L65E) units got all thrust bearings in place of the crummy washers.

I have seen that same column shifter issue before with overdrive transmissions in classic vehicles that originally had 3 speed autos. Not much you can do about that if you want to keep the original column shifter. Not unless you want to get real busy engineering a set of mods to the shift linkage and column. You would have to fabricate a new shifter detent rack and slot the opening(s) in the column housing to allow for one more forward gear range. The real trick would be making up a new indicator window to fit where yours is now. You could try it all out on spare parts and wrap your originals up in plastic for safe keeping. It would be very cool if you made it work.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ASE Doc View Post
Guess what I learned in school today? Raised MTV pressure raises shift points. My shift points were already higher than stock. With the .195" shim installed, the trans would shift from 1st to second at about 30mph minimum. A little too high. I'm starting to see why guys like Crosley and Dana at Pro Built don't include "add a .195 shim to the TV spring" to there recommendations for a great shifting 700R4. I'm in the process of shaving the shim down to .100". This should still give some rise in base line pressure and bring the shift points back into reality. I was about to just dump the whole idea and put things back the way they were but naaaah.
SO to get the raised MTV pressure, the .195 shim is put in the mtv bore of the valve body? Is it the mtv up or the mtv down?
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:26 AM
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Actually, forgive my ignorance if I'm not making sense. The shim does not go into either MTV bore. It goes in the TV plunger bore, between the spring and plunger, increasing tension on the TV spring throughout the stroke of the TV plunger. It affects MTV by increasing TV pressure. The .195" shim was too much and I shaved it down to .100". You could probably get away with the .195" if you did a full manual valve body or if you went through each shift valvetrain and changed springs to compensate for the raised MTV pressure, or just re-calibrated the governor. The .195 shim was just slim enough to allow the Transgo spacer to engage the plunger and valve about 1/8" before coil bind of the Sonnax spring(the Sonnax purple spring is about 1/8 longer than the Transgo red spring). I bored the shim to allow the Transgo spacer to fit inside so that only spring compression was affected by the shim. I also have the line bias valve blocked in place to prevent pressure drop on the circuit.

Last night I was thinking again, I gotta quit doing that. Since the only shift that is really an issue now is the 1-2 shift, I am starting to think that maybe the solution, rather than to backtrack on the shim, is to change the spring in the 1-2 shift valve.

Ever since I did the build on this trans last winter, the 2-3 auto shift has been low at 5,500. The 1-2 shift was just right at 6,300. With the .195 shim installed, the trans didn't want to shift from 1st at all and had a high 2-3 auto shift. With the .100 shim, the trans shifts just a little high from 1st at full throttle and I'm thinking that the 2-3 auto shift may be just right, though I haven't tried it yet. I did the Transgo 2-3 shift kit so I can now shift between 2nd and 3rd at will. It would still be nice though in a quick pass situation to be able to auto shift 2-3 closer to the engine's ideal shift point of 6,300.

Weather permitting, since I don't really want to do a full throttle 2-3 upshift on wet pavement, I will try one 2-3 auto upshift at full throttle on my way to the shop when I go back in to address the 4th accum piston and to do something with the 1-2 shift and the TCC circuit. If the 2-3 auto shift is good, I will try a slightly softer spring in the 1-2 shift valve instead of trimming the TV shim any further.

Once I get the shifts where I want them, I'll take another pressure reading to see where I end up with line pressure.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2013, 03:07 PM
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I just got off the phone with Ken at Oregon Torque Converter. I told him what results I had so far from the shim in the TV valve spring. I also told him about my idea to change the 1-2 shift valve spring instead of cutting the shim down anymore. Ken's thought is that the governor might be a better place to change the shift timing. He says that a little change in the governor has more effect on the 1-2 shift than on the other shifts. I don't know anything about that. Maybe someone out there has some experience with this. I also PM'd Crosley to pick his brain on my project.

Ken detailed a really cool method for measuring and comparing spring weights for choosing the right spring for either the 1-2 shift valve or the governor. Pick up a cheap kitchen scale from Walmart or wherever, measure the actual working range of the spring in its application (its compressed length and its expanded length). Then, using something like a small nut and bolt, make a measuring jig that will allow you to compress the spring through its working range on the scale so that you can measure the weight required to compress the spring this distance. This way, I can actually make an informed calculation on what spring to use. Basically, for a 15% drop in shift point, use a 15% softer spring. Seems to make sense. I think I might make a small change in the 1-2 shift valve to get me closer and fine tune from there on the governor.

I have a few springs that might work for the 1-2 shift valve, depending on what spring is in there now. I don't have any springs for the governor. I will look for a governor recalibration kit.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2013, 09:09 AM
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Just read Crosley's reply to my last PM. I asked him what he thought of this whole project, trying to raise base line pressure. Crosley responded that even 60-70 psi base pressure is fine. The key to success is good line rise at throttle tip in. I was at 95 psi with just the over the counter mods I had already done before I got started on this whole TV spring madness.

There is also a downside to raised line pressure that I hadn't thought of. Higher pressure beats up the fluid and creates excessive heat in the transmission. So, in my pursuit of higher pressures, trying to prevent clutch slippage that would never have happened anyway as long as I have good line rise and no cross leaks or rolled lip seals, I would have been putting alot of added stress on my entire transmission and certainly shortening its service life. Maybe it would have been better if I had never hooked up the pressure gauge.

I still think I'll keep the shim. It may help me ensure that I get quick line rise, but I am definitely going to back off on my base pressure goal. I'll cut the shim down to where the 1-2 shift is where I want it to be and leave the 1-2 shift valve and governor alone. Eventually, if my 2-3 auto shift is still lower than I want, I may go with the suggestion on Tony's pages and try a slightly stiffer spring in the 2-3 shift valve. I do like Ken's suggestion of using a kitchen scale to measure spring tension. I suppose in suggesting higher pressures Ken is thinking more of a competition based build and not on a car that will see alot of cruise time.

I'll still post my pressure results after this is all done but my goal now will be focused on line rise with a base closer to 100psi than 120. I'm thankful that guys like Crosley take the time to be here for guys like me. Thank you again Crosley.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2013, 09:23 AM
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I'm sure he's right. I think the 700 r4 and the 200 4r are the same reference pressure issues. I know if your pressure is 90 or more at base line, you have a problem starting off in second gear. Mine runs about 80 and climes instantly as I push the throttle. I'm only running the 471 size valve in mine, and my pressures are high enough. I'm thinking that I was lucky I didn't dual feed mine like the kit said I could. Just blocking the line bias valve did help raise my pressures a little more. If I was racing mine, then I would be a little more concerned. Good luck.
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Old 11-20-2013, 10:06 AM
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Actually, in the case of my 700R4, with the line pressure elevated by shimming the TV spring. I had no issue with the trans wanting to start out in 2nd. At first with the shim at .195 it wouldn't shift out of first due to MTV pressure being too high. With the shim trimmed down to .100, it shifts almost perfect. I just don't want to be beating up the unit by running around at 120psi at idle. I figure from this point where the unit is right now, if I just cut the shim down to maybe .070 or .060, I sould get the 1-2 shift back where it should be and base pressure should come out to about 100 or 110. I'll run it that way for a bit and see how trans temp seems to be. I haven't seen it get high yet but then I only ran it for short periods. Even with the TV spring not shimmed at all, I expect the TCI PR spring will create some increase in pressure throughout the operating range.
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:10 PM
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I put a longer spring in the tv on mine.
I have to go back and read the other posts. Looks like good info.

I don't recall what boost valve, rev boost valve and spring you are using. A .500 boost with the oversized rev boost and pink spring is suppose to get you up in the 275 psi range at full tv pull on a 2004r and I think the pink spring is a 700r4 piece(I think the boost valves are too).

Last edited by TexasT; 11-20-2013 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 11-20-2013, 07:17 PM
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1-2 shift at 6300 rpm's, 2-3 shift at 5500, your crazy! I can't look at the tech if my motor is spinning that fast cause my rectum is puckered. All my blood runs straight to my butt hole an I get tunnel vision.I really think you need to get a 4l80e quickly.
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Old 11-21-2013, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by dogwater View Post
1-2 shift at 6300 rpm's, 2-3 shift at 5500, your crazy! I can't look at the tech if my motor is spinning that fast cause my rectum is puckered. All my blood runs straight to my butt hole an I get tunnel vision.I really think you need to get a 4l80e quickly.
Lol. Yeah, I only get to glance. And, since at that point the car is generally just starting to roll with a cloud of tire smoke building under the back end, I get more time to look at the TACH. It took me a few tries to actually get to zero in on the shift point from 2-3 since the car makes the 6,300rpm shift at 80mph, at the engagement of 3rd gear, it launches to 100 real quick as the engine drops to 4,200rpm right at the heart of its torque curve. That's with a little 450hp 355. Imagine what it will be like with 600+hp. And yes, I am crazy. It's been scientifically proven and documented.

The 4L80E is brutus but I like the lightweight 700R4. I think with the upgrades I've done so far, I'm good to atleast 700hp, and if it breaks, I'll just fix it even better next time. The one thing that's been bugging me is all the metal from the thrust washer behind the input carrier. I'm really thinking about looking into the updated parts that allow the use of torrington bearings throughout the unit.

I run the Sonnax line rise kit and the Sonnax HP TV valve and plunger(#94 TV plunger and a billet bushing with no part throttle detent holes). It includes a longer purple TV spring that seems to be just a hair stiffer than the Transgo red spring. I run this plunger and spring with the Transgo no stick TV valve and a homemade spacer sized to match the Transgo spacer. The boost valves are .500 and .296. I have the line bias valve blocked in place. I installed the TCI purple pressure regulator spring in place of the Sonnax line rise PR spring, The Sonnax spring was a little longer than the Transgo green spring. The TCI purple spring($10.97 from Summit) is the same length as the Sonnax spring and notably stiffer. I'm going to get a kitchen scale tomorrow so I can start measuring these springs and note the actual spring rates.

I'm curious to see what base line pressure is now and how quick line rise is. I know I may need to pull back just a little on base pressure, down to 100-110. If I get down to 100psi base and still have a high 1-2 shift, I may still play with the 1-2 shift valve spring and/or governor. It will depend on the 2-3 auto shift. If it's where I want it, then I'll probably focus on the shift valve. I do have full shift control between 2nd and 3rd with the Transgo shift kit, so the 1-2 shift is the critical issue here. I would just like to also be able to auto shift 2-3 at close to the right point when I want to.

I may be ready to go back into the unit this weekend. Looks like I'll have everything I need. Have to keep a watchful eye on my lovely wife's mood going into the weekend. I don't want to end up homeless on Sunday.
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Old 11-22-2013, 07:48 AM
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You can use the torrington bearings for a 4l60e they all fit except you'll need a input planet carrier ( its inside of the sun shell) from a 4l60e. A 700r4 input planet carrier isn't machined for a torrington bearing. That's the only differance between the two. Plus you'll most likely need to use a thinner selective washer/shim. I bought a selective washer kit but none of them were thin enough, I had to flat sand it on glass & 220 gr. sand paper. I don't have my 700r4 notes with me now but I'll double check when I get home. I have a bunch of mods. in my notes, most of them I did an some I found after I had it built already.
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Old 11-22-2013, 09:51 AM
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Thank you dogwater for the information. I have seen the input carrier update. I wasn't sure if you had to use it with a 5 pinion planet or if it would work with the earlier 4 pinion. I also thought you needed an updated reverse input drum to take a torrington bearing behind the front pump.
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Old 11-22-2013, 09:58 AM
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I picked up a kitchen scale last night. $15 at Fred Meyer for an 11lb scale. I wont be able to measure the actual 1-2 shift valve spring until I pull the VB again but I have the old 3-2 valve and spring which are similar. The 3-2 spring measures 9.5 lbs at the point where the valve tip touches the scale. This would be the full compression of the spring in operation. I have a few springs on hand that are very close to this and some that are stiffer and some that are softer. Anxious to see what the 1-2 shift valve spring measures.
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Old 11-23-2013, 02:58 PM
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Of all the 700's I've ripped apart I've never seen a damaged or shreaded pump to drum thrust washer, in fact the ones I've seen looked like they weren't touched. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The 4l60e torrington bearing kit doesn't have that bearing in it at least not in a kit for a 2001 4l60e. This is one of the mods. I found for that pump to drum thrust washer, TH350 pump torrington bearing & a 200r4 drum bushing in the pump side of the reverse input drum, it will locate the TH350 pump torrington bearing.
Here's a few more, 4l65e parts- stator shafts are heat treated, heavy duty low/reverse roller clutch, shot peend out put shaft, and they use a additional friction plate added to the 3-4 clutch pack, 7 plates vs. 6 in a 4l60e an 5 pinion planearys.
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