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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2013, 03:46 PM
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700r4 mods.

700R's limitations
Here's something that's interesting to read. Personally I think these mods. are more than what was meant to be posted. I'm letting the cat out of the bag. Read what bugsdad has to say. Enjoy.......

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Last edited by dogwater; 11-23-2013 at 03:54 PM. Reason: more info.
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Old 11-24-2013, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by dogwater View Post
Of all the 700's I've ripped apart I've never seen a damaged or shreaded pump to drum thrust washer, in fact the ones I've seen looked like they weren't touched. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The 4l60e torrington bearing kit doesn't have that bearing in it at least not in a kit for a 2001 4l60e. This is one of the mods. I found for that pump to drum thrust washer, TH350 pump torrington bearing & a 200r4 drum bushing in the pump side of the reverse input drum, it will locate the TH350 pump torrington bearing.
Here's a few more, 4l65e parts- stator shafts are heat treated, heavy duty low/reverse roller clutch, shot peend out put shaft, and they use a additional friction plate added to the 3-4 clutch pack, 7 plates vs. 6 in a 4l60e an 5 pinion planearys.
I hate to get too far off-topic but what year(s) 4l60/5e should I be looking for to get the 5 pinion planetaries? I have a 94 4l60e that won't shift out of first in line when I get the 2004r back in the car.

Ase doc, thanks for the clarification on the tv spring shim. Sounds like it worked out for you.
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:54 AM
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4l65e came in 03 - 06 siliverdo SS, Hummer H2, Trailblazer SS, GTO, Caddy Escalade.
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Old 11-26-2013, 01:44 PM
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Thank you dogwater for that link. Excellent information.

You can also buy the planets new from GM or other sources. Avoid the cheaper aftermarket units as they are not the same thing. The last I heard, PATC was running a special price on the rear 5 pinion planet at $179 or something like that. The front planet, which comes with the updated(roller thrust bearing) reaction shaft, is $250 or so through them. My local hard parts recycler is a no go on the used 5 pinions. They must be in high demand.

As far as my TV spring shim project, I have nothing new to report. I have two big jobs in the shop right now, including a top end rebuild on a 98 BMW 528i that is tying up my clean table where do my trans work. I may get back to the trans this weekend. The more I think about it, I may just drop the shim and see where my line pressure is without it. I did the TCI PR spring and the shim at the same time. This may have been a mistake as I can't be sure what effect each one had. It could be that I'll get all the line pressure and line rise I want with the high rate PR spring and Sonnax TV spring and plunger without the shim.

I don't look forward to continuing to mess with the unit trying to get shift points back where they should be. It's too stressful. We'll see how I feel about it come Saturday. I will be saving funds for some of the mods listed in the thread that dogwater linked for us.
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Old 12-02-2013, 12:59 PM
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I just heard back from Crosley with an answer to my question: Can you run the new style reaction shaft with Torrington thrust bearing with a 4 pinion planet? The answer is yes. You don't have to have the entire expensive 5 pinion planet to get away from the bi-metal thrust washer behind the input ring gear. You can swap just the reaction shaft and replace the bi-metal washer with the Torrington thrust bearing.

PATC has a hardened reaction shaft alone for $124. Would need to get the bearing separately. They also have the complete OE reaction shaft and bearing(not hardened) for $116. The Chev dealer looks to be around $180 for same part. Either way, it's alot less than the 5 pinion planet set that I'm told isn't necessary below 750hp.
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Old 12-02-2013, 04:10 PM
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I hate to get too far off-topic but what year(s) 4l60/5e should I be looking for to get the 5 pinion planetaries? I have a 94 4l60e that won't shift out of first in line when I get the 2004r back in the car.

Ase doc, thanks for the clarification on the tv spring shim. Sounds like it worked out for you.
In addition to the info Dogwater provided, keep your eyes peeled for trucks with the 4l60E-HD. In 2001 the AWD GMC Sierra C3 was equipped with the LQ4 6.0 engine rated at 325hp@5200rpm/370/lb/ft torque@4000rpm. The C3 morphed into the AWD GMC Sierra Denali truck. Basically if the truck was a 1/2 ton and originally had a 6.0 liter 300-325hp LQ4 or a 345hp 6.0 LQ9 engine it had the 4l60E-HD/4l65E. The 1500HD, 2500LD, 2500HD and 3500HD ALL got the 4l80E so far as the 4 speed auto transmissions are concerned.

Here is some info quoting GM documentation in regards to the 4l60E-HD, 4l65E and some 4l70E transmissions.

2001 4l60E-HD
4L60-E HD

Strengthened Input & Reaction Gearsets with 5-Pinion, Powder Metal Carriers

-Heat-Treated Stator Shaft Splines
-Aluminum Stator Shaft Bushing
-Induction-Hardened Turbine Shaft
-Heavy-Duty Low/Reverse Roller Clutch
-Additional Friction Plate in the 3-4 Clutch
-Improved Input Carrier and Reaction Shell Thrust Bearings
-Shot-Peened Output Shaft
-Revised Valve Body Calibration

And some info on the specific parts of the 60E-HD/4l65E transmissions.
4L60-E HD STRENGTHENED INPUT AND REACTION GEARSETS WITH 5-PINION, POWDER METAL CARRIERS (4L60-E HD)
The input and reaction gearsets are each composed of a sun gear, pinion (or "planetary") gears and a ring gear. Both gearsets now use five pinion gears instead of four. The additional pinion gear spreads torque loads around to reduce the load supported by any one gear, in both compression and bending. Together with this change is a switch to higher-quality bronze batwing washers, which ride under each pinion gear and serve as a bearing surface.

Additionally, the pinion gear carrier in each gearset is now made with powder metal. Powder metal parts are formed by pouring a fine metal powder into a die, which is then subjected to extreme heat and pressure to cause the powder to flow and fuse into a solid material. This process allows for more precise detail on each part, and for more consistent parts and higher strength.

HEAT-TREATED STATOR SHAFT SPLINES (4L60-E HD) The stator shaft is a fixed, hollow shaft splined to the torque converter stator roller clutch on one end and attached to the pump assembly, which is fixed to the transmission case, on the other end. The splines that mesh with the hub of the stator roller clutch are now heat-treated for added strength. Heat treating involves subjecting a part to a sequence of heating and cooling cycles to relieve internal stresses in the metal in order to attain a desired hardness and strength.

ALUMINUM STATOR SHAFT BUSHINGS (4L60-E HD) The turbine shaft is the main shaft transferring torque from the torque converter into the transmission. It connects to the torque converter turbine assembly on one end and the overdrive carrier assembly on the other. The shaft rides inside the fixed, hollow stator shaft and is supported by two bushings. These bushings are now made out of aluminum instead of a steel-backed bronze. The aluminum is a superior material that can handle higher loads.

INDUCTION-HARDENED TURBINE SHAFT (4L60-E HD) The turbine shaft is the main shaft transferring torque from the torque converter into the transmission. It connects to the torque converter turbine assembly on one end and the overdrive carrier assembly on the other. This shaft is now induction hardened for greater strength. Induction hardening is a type of heat treating in which a part is subjected to a sequence of heating and cooling cycles through the application of strong electric current. These heating and cooling cycles relieve internal stresses in the metal in order to attain a desired hardness and strength.

HEAVY-DUTY LOW/REVERSE ROLLER CLUTCH (4L60-E HD) A roller clutch is a type of one-way clutch with a series of rollers riding in ramps in an outer race. The ramps are shaped such that the rollers can run free in one direction, but are wedged against the outer race if the clutch is rotated in the opposite direction, thereby locking the clutch. The low/reverse roller clutch is activated in the first-gear position and thus sees the highest torque loads. This clutch now has larger diameter rollers to withstand the increased loads.

ADDITIONAL FRICTION PLATE IN THE 3-4 CLUTCH (4L60-E HD)
This clutch now has seven friction plates instead of six, as well as harder core steel in those friction plates. The changes results in higher shift energy capacity.

IMPROVED INPUT CARRIER AND REACTION SHELL THRUST BEARINGS (4L60-E HD)The input and reaction gearsets have various components, such as sun gears and pinion gear carriers, rotating at different speeds in close proximity to one another. At these interfaces, thrust washers or bearings are used to reduce friction and support any load that may occur between the parts. In the case of the interface between the reaction shaft and the reaction sun gear and shell, a heavy-duty, needle-type thrust bearing is now used in place of a thrust washer in order to withstand increased loads. On the opposite side of the reaction shell, where it rides against the input pinion carrier, the thrust bearing has been upgraded to withstand higher loads.

SHOT-PEENED OUTPUT SHAFT (4L60-E HD) The output shaft is the final shaft in the flow of power through the transmission. It transfers torque from the output planetary gearset to the drive shaft and on to the rear axle. This shaft is now shot-peened in high-stress areas to increase strength. Shot-peening involves blasting a part with beads of a harder material in order to relieve surface stresses to produce a higher fatigue life.

REVISED VALVE BODY CALIBRATION (4L60-E HD) As with any new engine application, the calibration of the hydraulic system, such as line pressure and shift timing, has been adjusted to optimize shift feel given the revised engine torque curve. Additionally, the springs in the accumulator valve (a spring-loaded device that absorbs a certain amount of fluid pressure in a circuit to cushion clutch engagement according to engine torque) have been replaced with stronger ones to withstand higher fluid pressure.


HISTORY
In 1999 the Hydra-matic 4L60-E received several improvements, including new pump cover seals for improved sealing, new clutch plate materials for improved durability and performance, and Teflon-coated bushings to reduce friction.

TWO-PIECE CASE
The 4L60-E and 4L60-E HD use a two-piece transmission case with a 360-degree bell housing that completely encloses the torque converter assembly, instead of traditional three-piece construction with a partial bell housing. The result is a dramatic increase in powertrain stiffness and significantly reduced levels of noise and vibration.

This bell housing is modified to suit the wide range of vehicles the 4L60-E serves in, which includes a large line of trucks as well as the Firebird.

ELECTRONIC CONTROLLED CAPACITY CLUTCH (ECCC)
The 4L60-E and 4L60-E HD use an electronic controlled capacity clutch (used instead of a mechanical lock-up clutch). This clutch uses sophisticated electronics to maintain very small amounts of slip between the pressure plate and the torque converter housing cover. The ability to precisely control continuously variable amounts of slip leads to reduced torque pulses and allows the clutch to be applied at lower vehicle speeds and with smoother engagement. This results in improved drivability and better fuel economy.

ADAPTIVE SHIFT CONTROL
The 4L60-E and 4L60-E HD use sophisticated electronics to modify shift patterns as conditions dictate. The Powertrain Control Module (PCM) monitors factors such as throttle position, vehicle speed, gear range, temperature and engine load. The PCM also measures changes in the operating condition of the vehicle, which occur naturally over time as components wear. Based on these measurements, shift timing and hydraulic line pressure are adapted to maintain optimum shift feel under different conditions - for example, during heavy hauling or trailering. This results in improved drivability and fuel economy. The PCM also allows the system to self-adjust for minor variations in each new unit, ensuring that every customer experiences consistent performance, and ensuring that the transmission will produce a constant high level of performance for the life of the car.

ABUSE AND SHIFT TORQUE MANAGEMENT
When a driver mistakenly subjects a vehicle to an abusive maneuver, such as moving quickly from drive to reverse while rocking the car to get out of a snow drift, abnormal wear can occur. The 4L60-E's PCM helps to protect the powertrain by retarding spark to reduce engine output during such situations. Similarly, the PCM briefly cuts engine torque prior to each shift to reduce driveline lash, thus producing smoother shifts.

SHIFT STABILIZATION
A common problem in climbing or descending hills is "shift business," which is the tendency of the transmission to hunt between gears. The PCM addresses this issue by sensing when the vehicle is operating on a grade and selecting and holding an appropriate gear, based on throttle position, engine speed and other factors.

SECOND GEAR START
The second gear start option on the 4L60-E and 4L60-E HD provides an extra measure of security and control in hazardous driving conditions. By moving the gear selector to the D2 position, the driver can reduce engine torque to the drive wheels, increasing control during initial acceleration on slippery roads.

LOW MAINTENANCE
The 4L60-E and 4L60-E HD use long-life DEXRON III transmission fluid, which has a 100,000-mile service interval under normal use (50,000-mile for severe use). Additionally, the PCM monitors operating conditions of the transaxle and alerts the driver with a warning light if there is a deterioration that would cause a significant loss in vehicle performance, such as shift feel or drivability. The PCM also monitors for deteriorations that would allow the vehicle to exceed acceptable emissions levels, in compliance with OBD II regulations.

LEADERSHIP
"We are very proud of the teamwork and effort that went into the 4L60-E HD program. It was a "go fast" program that required the team to go from project initiation to the start of production in just 13 months. That included not only the redesign of many parts, but also validation of the design and the manufacturing and assembly system. This program is a win-win for both the vehicle and powertrain." --Steve Ford, Total Integration Engineer, 4L60-E and 4L60-HD.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxx

I just realized that there was a 2wd and AWD Escalade with a 285hp/325lb/ft all aluminum LM7 as the engine in the 2wd Escalade and the AWD Esky got the 345hp/380lb/ft torque LQ9 6.0L engine.

Here are the performance specs from each from GM performance testing.

AWD Escalade 6.0 LQ9 Performance
Fuel Economy, EPA Rating
City/Hwy (mpg) 12 / 16
City/Hwy (km/L) 5 / 6.8

Standing 1/4 Mile (sec/mph) 16.63 / 80
Top Speed (mph/kph) 108 / 173.8 (speed limited)
0-60 mph (0-96 kph) Acceleration (sec.) 8.57

60-0 mph (96-0 kph) Braking Distance (ft./M) 162 / 49.3

2wd Escalade 5.3 LM7 Performance
Fuel Economy, EPA Rating
City/Hwy (mpg) 14 / 17
City/Hwy (km/L) 6.0 / 7.2

Standing 1/4 Mile (sec/mph) 17.28 / 78
Top Speed (mph/kph) 108 / 173.8 (speed limited)
0-60 mph (0-96 kph) Acceleration (sec.) 9.45

60-0 mph (96-0 kph) Braking Distance (ft./M) 162 / 49.3

peace
Hog
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2013, 05:22 PM
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Wow Hogg. That's alot of information. Thanks for adding the other vehicles to the list of those that have the heavy duty planets and reaction shaft.

I put together a little price list today and for not much money I can go ahead and replace all of the bushings and the reaction shaft. I know it's one more time into the unit but aside from a few quarts of fluid and a pump gasket, I'm, not out anything. I'm getting to where I can practically D&R this thing in my sleep. I'm going to take extra care this time to be sure that everything is perfect so I don't have to mess with it again anytime soon. I guess I said that last time but I wasn't really expecting to have so many issues. I feel very good about the overall build now. I just need to address the end play and I really want to get rid of the bi metal thrust washer.

On this last teardown, I didn't expect to find so much damage, all caused by the 3-4 clutch failure. I am very confident that with the pressures and cooling system I have with things set up right, there will be no more issues with the 3-4 clutches. While I corrected pretty much all of the issues caused by the 3-4 failure, I didn't replace the bi-metal thrust washer that also got torn up some. The wear of the washer added alot of end play. With the upgrades I'll be doing now, I'll be able to set up end play to the correct spec and have it stay there.

One thing I need to get is a bushing driver set for this trans. Pro Built has a set just for this unit for $179 which is a great price. I may just go with Snap On though since I can put it on the truck account and pay for it in installments with no interest. I'll get the bushings here and measure them to know what size drivers I need.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2013, 06:12 PM
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Kind of makes me want to shell out some cash for a stand alone 4l60e HD tranny. A toggle shifter would be cool to.
So what do you think if any performance transmission builders out there who build them for a living saw what's on these few pages, they might have a cow....Then again they have probable moved on to 4l80e,s an such.
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Old 12-04-2013, 06:49 AM
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I think the real pros already know this stuff. They don't likely care whether we know it or not. Their big advantage is that through experience, they know how to get it right the first time. Guys like Crosley just watch us and wait for us to ask the right questions. They have the answers.

It's starting to wear on me that this will be the 3rd time I've been into this unit. I'm not even going to tell my wife that I plan to spend more money and time going through this trans one more time. She was on me last time to just take it to a pro and have it done. On the other hand, it took the guys who built it for me back in 2000 three times as well. My solice comes first from knowing that when I get it all done, I will know the unit inside and out. It will no longer be a part of my car, every other part of which I built with my own hands, that is a mystery to me. Second, from knowing that it will be far superior to what most any trans shop would have done for me.

Parts like the Smart Tech input housing, which as part of a properly built transmission produces a near indestructible 3-4 clutch pack, most builders wouldn't have used because of the high cost. For me, it just makes sense because the 3-4 clutch is such a problem. This clutch is the reason it took three tries to get the trans to hold up last time. The 3-4 clutch setup I have now is heads and shoulders above what was in there before.

As far as the 4L80E goes, except for big block or supercharged applications running 1000+ hp or tons of torque, I feel like it's just too heavy to be practical in anything lighter than a truck or large sedan. As long as we keep power in a coupe or mid size under 1000hp and don't run slicks, I think the 700R4 or 2004R will always be great options. Improvements continue to be made to the 700R4 at least. I don't know about the 2004R so I can't say, but better, stronger parts just keep showing up for the 700s like the new super strong input shafts from Sonnax and others. These are more pricey parts but make the trans even beefier.
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Old 12-04-2013, 05:04 PM
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I hope this doesn't cause any issues but there is a thread going on thirdgen.org concerning a 700R4 build and a member posted a link to a good pictorial of a rebuild by someone who obviously knows what he's doing. He uses all of the factory tools to go through the unit. The thread on TGO is in the Transmission and Drivetrain forum and started by Ozz1967. If I was better at the computer I would just post a link but sorry. I only posted about this thread because this run through is pretty good. Wish there was more detail on installing lip seals. That is one part of the job that is really tricky to get right.
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Old 12-05-2013, 06:36 AM
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For the lip seals I used that round green colored thing, can't remember what its called. After I got the hang of it it worked pretty good. Just bend it an turn it at the same time. Besides the 700 that's in the car I have another one (1990 yr. mod.) bought it off of Craigslist for 50.00. The guy was having problems with it so the trans. shop put in a rebuilt valve body, then he said he drove it another 2000 miles or so an it failed again, it had burned up the band an the 3-4 clutches were burned up to, that's what I found when I took it apart. I was thinking that I got a good valve body at the least. Anyhow I've got it hanging around just in case. It would be easier for you if you have an extra 700 that was half way built. You must have access to a lift, that makes it a lot easier to put them out. I had to put a few 2x6's under my biggest jack stands just to be able to slid the trans under the car, then I had to get it onto my roll under jack an then get the torque converter on which must weight 60 lbs. onto the trans while laying on the garage floor . Not easy at all!!!! An no help either.
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Old 12-05-2013, 01:31 PM
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Gm lists the 4l60e as weighing up to 194lbs wet, and the 4l80e at 255lbs.

I dont see any 4l60e/65e/70e 700r4 being reliable in big power applications or trucks. But I do see a lot of issues with these transmissions being related to the builder. I paid big bucks for s 60e build locally and had better luck with stock 60e's.


Ive seen pictures of 200r4 and 700r4 parts side by side, and a lot of teh 700r4 parts are substantially larger that the 200r4.

The 200r4 has the best all around gear ratios IMO. I just wish the 200r4 had the 4l80e strength and shift feel. It has a 1st gear ratio that splits the 4l80e (2.48)and 700r4's(3.06) 1st gears at 2.74:1 and also has the deep 0.67:1 OD ratio like the new 6 speed autos have.

Having quality trans builder is worth their weight in gold.

peace
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Old 12-09-2013, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dogwater View Post
For the lip seals I used that round green colored thing, can't remember what its called. After I got the hang of it it worked pretty good. Just bend it an turn it at the same time. Besides the 700 that's in the car I have another one (1990 yr. mod.) bought it off of Craigslist for 50.00. The guy was having problems with it so the trans. shop put in a rebuilt valve body, then he said he drove it another 2000 miles or so an it failed again, it had burned up the band an the 3-4 clutches were burned up to, that's what I found when I took it apart. I was thinking that I got a good valve body at the least. Anyhow I've got it hanging around just in case. It would be easier for you if you have an extra 700 that was half way built. You must have access to a lift, that makes it a lot easier to put them out. I had to put a few 2x6's under my biggest jack stands just to be able to slid the trans under the car, then I had to get it onto my roll under jack an then get the torque converter on which must weight 60 lbs. onto the trans while laying on the garage floor . Not easy at all!!!! An no help either.
I think it's called seal buddy or some dumb thing. I used it too and it works okay with a little practice and lots of lube. I paid good money for the factory tools to install the forward and overrun pistons. Couldn't use either of them because of the input housing reinforcement ring.

I built my car on jack stands back in 99. Spent 4 months between the creeper and bent over the front end. Since then, I have always worked on lifts and got spoiled. When I did the trans build last winter, I had the car on stands for the R&I portion of the job. It took twice as long and man was I tired from working so long in that position. For the weekend in and out trans work I've done since then, I'm using a lift at the shop. Warm, well lighted work area, all my tools right there and no working on my back. I am spoiled.
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Old 12-09-2013, 04:13 PM
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I harassed Crosley some more over the weekend. We talked about his modification converting the reverse input drum/pump thrust washer to a torrington bearing. His method is to use a TH350 pump torrington in place of the washer and locate it using a longer(2004R) bushing at the front of the drum. He told me that it may be necessary to machine the stator support for clearance. PATC offers a modified drum, machined to accept a torrington bearing in place of the washer. Assuming that they have machined the drum for correct end clearance with the bearing, this may be the easier way to go. They want $205 for the part which is a chunk of change but if it is a drop in replacement, it may be worth it to avoid issues with clearance.

At this point, I'm thinking that I will go through and replace all bushings and install the late style reaction shaft with torrington bearing. Then, I'll work on collecting the other parts to do the rest of the work in another year or two. I never had any issue with that washer behind the pump so I think it will be fine for now. Eventually though, as part of preparing the unit for higher rpm stability and more power capacity, I will replace all of the thrust washers with bearings. I may also replace the input shaft with a new super duty piece. Sonnax for one, makes a high strength shaft for the 700R4.
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Old 12-10-2013, 05:11 PM
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lWe have more older Chevrolet trucks running around with th350 in them than their original 700 r4 trannys. Some got so tired of rebuilding they just put in the th350 out of frustration . Even when I asked the tranny builder why, he just said they were used to hard compared to the cars. That is one of the reasons I chose the 200 4r. I've had the pan off mine four times now, and it still looks good inside. No junk in the pan at all. I can understand why the bigger heavier trannys with bigger horse powder, but the 200 4r works good in my nova with the healthy 350.
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