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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2013, 06:34 AM
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My first choose was going to be a 200r4, I even bought a torque converter for a 200r4 but when I got a 4l60e for free I was going to use it until I found out how much a stand alone controller was. I did some research an found out I could use a lot of the parts from the 4l60e in a 700r4. I bought a used 700 for 75.00, not knowing at the time what the green tag that said remanufactured by Hydromantic meant. At the same time I had a want add on Craigslist for a used 700r4 an bought another 700 for 50.00. The guy I bought it from said He had just replaced the valve body with a rebuilt one, but it didn't fix his problems. I figured a rebuilt valve body was worth the 50.00. So I ended up using a 700. I had the torque converter switch over to fit a 700r4. Getting rid of the TH350 an putting in 700r4 has been a big improvement in the rpm's at 70mph. I was turning around 3000 at 70 now its turning 2200 in OD.

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Old 12-12-2013, 07:29 AM
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From a design standpoint, sometimes a Torrington style "lazy susan" bearing is not a good idea versus the steel-backed bronze washer.

In a torrington bearing the rollers are the same diameter at both ends, the "outside" end of the individual roller wants to move at a different speed than the "inside end" just like when you make a turn with your car. Just because something says HD, it doesn't necessarily mean "High Speed." What happens is the rollers will start to skid and generate heat, eventually the thrustbearing will fail. We service an industrial gearbox that has 2 different models. The early model uses a thrust washer (steel backed bronze), the later one uses a Torrington bearing. The Torrington bearing is a frequent failure point in the exact same application

The right answer for some applications is a tapered roller "lazy susan" bearing. Timken makes one called a TTCL. However these are custom bearings and not cheap.

If the Torrington bearing is holding up; great, keep on using it, but its not always the answer. We've gone to using custom steel-backed bronze thrust washers instead of plain steel ones in our competition 4spd gearboxes. When we get them back for inspection, the washers are almost always still serviceable, however they're replaced along with new sealed ball bearings. We looked at Torringtons, but our RPM and loads can be pretty severe.
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2013, 08:43 AM
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Wow, thanks to Hogg and dogwater for the additional information.looks like I have my target, just have to find one or more and get to building. I'm heading over to thirdgen to see about the thread asedoc posted. I'll put up a link when I find it.

Also thanks to autogear for the bearing vs washer tech. I talked to my dad about the issue and he had similar thoughts. He is a mechanical engineer with a PE and about 50yrs experience so I trust what he has to say. His thought were that less moving parts as long as well lubricated(cooled) was a better and even had less friction as it was riding the hydraulic wedge and not pushing rollers and a cage around

Picked up new(er) tranmission, what can you guys tell me about it? - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards
Is this the thread? It didn't have pix as you suggested.

Last edited by TexasT; 12-15-2013 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 12-20-2013, 03:31 PM
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Im sorry. I got mixed up on what thread was which. The pictorial I was referring to is linked by vettoz in the thread, by Ozz that you just linked to. It's the 4 page link in post #23.

I am also very intrigued by the discussion on thrust washers vs. Torrington bearings. I assumed that because GM made the switch in the later years as they worked to increase torque capacity in the 4L60, that the Torringtons must be better. One supplier offers the late reaction shaft(takes the Torrington instead of a washer) as an upgrade. I have always known that the needles in a Torrington don't really roll evenly. It's obvious that a non tapered needle isn't going to roll in a circle. Still, when you look at the 700R4/4L60, you see where they have used Torrington bearings for years in high stress locations and these bearings never fail.

I realize as I think about it, even after 25K miles of hard use, the steel backed bronze washer that came out of the unit last winter was still in pretty good shape. I replaced it of course as part of the rebuild. The new one that's in there now was torn up when the 3-4 clutches failed after the rebuild. Maybe what I need is just a new bronze thrust washer. They do offer one that is PTFE coated to ease break in.

Today was Christmas at work and along with flagging a record 2 weeks, I got a fat bonus. So now I'll think about how to proceed on this and make my move on Monday.
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Old 12-21-2013, 08:51 AM
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I'm thinking their is varying pressure on the torringtons thru out the transmission. I'm sure GM thought about this. I'm going a little off subject here, does GM in fact design an build their auto transmissions?
If there was a spot in the trans that had consistent pressure (pushing against each other) then I would of hoped that they used a tapered roller bearing. But when you think about it, its turning force, that where the pressure is.
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Old 12-21-2013, 09:45 AM
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Different phases(gear) of operation apply different forces on the parts of the trans. I know that with a trans brake it applies force in one direction the when released that force is pushed to other bushings/bearings. I'm not sure there is one that sees the same force In each phase of operation.

There is a plastic washer in the 2004r under the sprag in one of the planetaries that is reccomended to be replaced with a bearing no matter as gm updated to the bearing in later years. I think this is heat related failure as the metal torrington will take way more heat than a plastic piece will. And where it is situated, once the sprag and planetary are heated up they just don't get cooled resulting in a melted washer.



700R4 - 4L60 Build Up Inside [Forums - C4 Technical] - CorvetteGuruForum.com
700R4-4L60 Build Up Part 2 [Forums - C4 Technical] - CorvetteGuruForum.com
700R4-4L60 Build Up Part 3 [Forums - C4 Technical] - CorvetteGuruForum.com
700R4-4L60 Build Up Part 4 [Forums - C4 Technical] - CorvetteGuruForum.com
700R4-4L60 Build Up Part 5 [Forums - C4 Technical] - CorvetteGuruForum.com

Last edited by TexasT; 12-21-2013 at 09:49 AM. Reason: fat finger corrections
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2013, 02:31 PM
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Thanks Texas T for linking the thread I was referring to before. That is a pretty decent run through of the rebuild process.

As far as thrust pressure is concerned, anytime helical cut gears are used, some of the rotational force applied to a gear set is going to be converted into end force. When rotational force changes direction, as in accel/decel, the end force is also going to change direction. This is why correct end play setting is so important. Excessive end play will lead to hammering of parts when direction of force changes. As said before, the Torrington bearing is not perfect since the needles don't roll smoothly in a circle. But, the Torrington works. It apparently works quite well in an automatic transmission, since they seem to last a lifetime. Of course lubrication and cooling have to be good to ensure a long life, as with all the internals of the unit.

I ordered my new reaction shaft with Torrington bearings today, along with a new band since mine has a small chunk of friction broken off from my mis handling. Ive since learned the correct method for installing the band, so no further damage should occur. I also ordered new bushings and when they arrive, I'll measure them and get the correct size drivers from Snap On.
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Old 12-23-2013, 06:02 PM
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Snap-on bushing drivers.... One thing I did was when I could get one out without mucking it up I'd use the old one to install the new one. I didn't have a press either but I do have a big *** bench vice. Also used a 8 in. long 1/2 bolt that I had to cut more threads on it. An a boat load of different size 1/2 in. washers. Then I found out that you need something to back up the washer because the washer will **** inside the bore thus pushing the bushing in crooked. It was a giant pain in the ***, so what ever bushing drivers you can get,do it.
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Old 12-24-2013, 11:37 AM
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I am a Snap On victim, over 20 years time, enough to buy a nice home. I find that in my profession, using my tools every day to make my living, they are worth the money. But, the reason I'm going with Snappy on the drivers is simple economics. While I can buy a set of drivers for alot less from Pro Built Automatics, my truck account with Snappy will let me buy just the ones I need and pay for them over a few months time with no finance charge. Pretty good deal. Plus, if I foul one up, I get a brand new one to replace it for free, no questions asked.

I'm already thinking maybe I need to get another set of bushings. The Corvette Guru installed two bushings instead of one at one end of the front sun gear. I'm going to review his buildup for the details. I haven't heard anything from Crosley on this, Crosley is my transmission guru, but it sounds like it could be a good idea. At $18, the bushings are a cheap investment.
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Old 12-24-2013, 01:31 PM
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Well I stand corrected. I just looked through every post of the Corvette Guru's 700R4 build and didn't see anything about the sun gear bushings. Guess I saw that somewhere else. I did order the double wide rear sun gear bushing along with the set, so I'm covered there.
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Old 12-24-2013, 02:49 PM
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I see nothing wrong with purchasing quality tools. I can't due to budgetary contstaints but I can appreciate using what I has(disregard the snappy stuff in my pix I'm not sure where they came from haha).

I've not seen the double sungear bushing though I will be putting forth a google search on the subject along with a through reread of the corvette guru threads on 4l60e assembly. Mine is a 94. I have the original and a used one that stopped shifting.out of first. As soon as the 2004r is in the car and working out comes the 4l60e and appart it will come.

Great info in this thread. Keep up he good work and Merry Christmas.
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2013, 10:17 AM
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There was one bushing that I had problems with not wanting to fit on the output shaft and I don't remember which one it was for sure but it was to tight. I'm thinking it was on the 4l60e reaction shaft, I remember it was a 4l60e part an I was using 700r4 bushings. You might run into this also maybe. What I did was by using valve grinding compound, the stuff that's in a squeeze tube, I put some on the output shaft an some on the ID of the bushing, mounted it on the bench vice an slowly pushed it on an turning at the the same time. It took some time but I got it to fit. Then cleaned an washed everything. I do remember that I checked the p/n for each bushing an they we we the same. Another thing is to smear some red locktite on the OD of all the bushing before installing, an don't cover any oiling holes with the bushing. And I did them one at a time so not to mix anything up, cause all my info. didn't say which bushing goes where only that a bushing needs to be there. Some bushing have groves in them some don't , just replace like bushings with like bushings. FYI
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Old 12-27-2013, 10:07 PM
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Thanks dogwater for the heads up on the bushings. I have had trouble before with bushings running tight after install. As far as I know it's because the bushing gets compressed or deformed from installation. That's why the correct bushing driver fits snug inside the bushing to prevent deformation. In the pictorial that Texas T linked above, the guy suggests locktight green sleeve retainer for the bushings. I have some leftover from the input shaft install and may get more. Now that I think about it, the one bushing I tried to drive out from my extra rear Sun gear didn't want to break loose. The locktight may have been the cause of that. I may apply some gentle heat and see if that helps. Heat is usually the key to releasing locktight.

Turns out that as far as the double front Sun gear bushing mod goes, I was confusing the TH350 and 700R4 with each other. I remembered that mod from looking up a TH350 build. I will install the double wide rear Sun gear bushing. This whole bushing replacement process could all turn out to be pretty easy. The front pump and stator are newly rebuilt with the upgraded bushings already installed. The reverse input housing has new bushings, the reaction shaft should also come with new bushings. The only bushings I'll have to deal with are the sun gears, tail shaft, and rear case. Hopefully. Well see when I get there.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:20 AM
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New pieces just showed up. The reaction shaft looks great. It is a tight fit to the ring gear so I'll warm the gear up for assembly. That should help. I see the reaction shaft has 5 reliefs machined into the front edge that need to align with the lube holes in the gear. The new shaft came with the late style wide aluminum bushings installed. That leaves just the sun gears, rear case and tail shaft bushings to install. I'll measure the bushings and match the sizes to drivers from the Snap On catalog. Getting closer to being ready.
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Old 01-07-2014, 05:55 PM
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I've decided to scrap the Snap On bushing driver idea and just go with a set of specific drivers for the 700R4. Pro built no longer offers them but Dana gave me some leads to find a set and I located one at Streetside Tools. They want $179 for it. This will give the all the correct sizes to do the complete trans and will make future overhauls easier.

I also found an interesting part upgrade. Crosley had mentioned in another thread using a different front bushing in the reverse input drum and a torrington bearing in place of the front pump thrust washer. I found a set from Greater Dimensions Engineering that includes a modified bushing and torrington bearing for this purpose. The set was only $19 so I ordered it. I was going to hold off on that mod for now but I may as well do it since I'll have the parts.

With the mods I'll be doing, the only thrust washer left in the trans will be between the low/rev roller clutch inner race and the sun shell. The rest will be replaced with torrington bearings.
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