700R4 low pressures? - Page 9 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Transmission - Rearend
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #121 (permalink)  
Old 02-03-2014, 03:08 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 12
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thanks dwwl. I spoke with the tech guys at Greater Dimensions Engineering about the end play result with their kit not being what they stated. They said that it's because of the Smart Shell and the low/rev race that goes with it being cut too short overcompensating for the Torrington. That makes sense to me and was kind of what I was thinking. The end play could be reduced by simply going to a thicker bearing or adding a .015 shim. They agreed though that .020 is very good. Much better than the OE spec. I'm wishing now that I'd brought the car to work today. Not much going on and I could have dug into the trans to fix 4th gear and my MTV pressure. Oh well, a week away from it won't kill me.

In the middle of writing this post, Dana from Pro Built called to check on me since I called him for help on Saturday. He seconded what Crosley said about the lube hole in the input housing. He also said I probably screwed something up that I don't have 4th now. I am double checking the separator plate gaskets and I can't see anywhere they don't match. I swapped out the Transgo gaskets in the unit for Transtech from the paper rubber kit. I'll drive the car back to the shop next weekend and if I don't have 4th by the time I get here, I'll drop the pan and see what I did wrong.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #122 (permalink)  
Old 02-04-2014, 07:15 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 12
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Well.....I Thought I'd seize the opportunity to take car of the trans today, since it was so slow yesterday. Weather man calls for snow on Saturday and I want to get done ahead of that. Turns out I've done 3 cars and over 8 hours work already today before 2pm. Better yet, it's been trying to snow all day. I may still get the chance to dig into the car today but then I may end up having to leave it here at the shop if it decides to snow for real. That's winter in the Willamette Valley for you. It'll probably be 65 and sunny by next week.

In the time since I started this post, I got the opportunity and dropped the VB on the trans. Guess what's not there? The 4th accumulator check ball. Dammit! I knew I missed that one. I was going to grab it and I got distracted. Oh well. Good news is the trans fluid is perfect. In the 35 miles since Saturday's work, and that includes one hairy smoke show as I tested the 1-2 shift point. Not a spec of friction material or metal. Has to be a good sign right? Now... maybe I'll get to see if the TCC works. Finally.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #123 (permalink)  
Old 02-04-2014, 08:48 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Atlantilc iowa
Posts: 432
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 26 Times in 26 Posts
An't, not proper english, an't it fun. The more i work on these tranny, the more i want to learn them. Well, atleast the 200 4r. I'm sure you think the same of the 700 r4. I've copied every thing i could find about them, and have a folder three inches thick. I also have a old dresser full of old good parts as well as some new parts, not counting a ready second tranny. Make a record of what you did to it, that way you'll never wonder down the road what and how you modified it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #124 (permalink)  
Old 02-04-2014, 09:12 PM
Crosley's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: T-350 rebuild tech
Last journal entry: Morris update 9-28-2014
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: ... USA
Posts: 8,151
Wiki Edits: 1659

Thanks: 385
Thanked 106 Times in 102 Posts
the check ball near the 4th gear accumilator piston in case will not cause 4th gear to operate or not operate. It simply meters down oil flow.

You have other problems for no 4th gear
__________________
Some people are like Slinkies... Not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Crosley For This Useful Post:
ASE Doc (02-05-2014)
  #125 (permalink)  
Old 02-05-2014, 09:00 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 12
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Thank you Crosley, and of course you are correct. I still have no 4th gear. What is somewhat telling is that I do have TCC lockup, which means that I am getting 4th gear signal to the pressure switch. I don't know if I had lockup before I installed the check ball because I didn't try turning on the dash switch to see, but last night I had it. I had doubts about the check ball myself from reviewing the hydraulic schematics since this check ball doesn't do much, especially with the Transgo mods deleting the 4th accumulator function.

Something I noticed last night with the TCC locked was a pulsation, like the 4th servo was cycling on and off. While doing the roller mods on Saturday, I thought I saw where the 2-4 band might have been set a little tight so I removed one shim in front of the 4th servo. I run the Sonnax dual piston 4th servo which isn't very forgiving of too much freeplay. I'm wondering now if I may have set the clearance too large and now the 4th servo is over extending and passing oil.

Maybe you recall how I suffered the consequences once before of making wholesale changes. Ending up having to undo what I had done so that I could see what change was causing my problem.

What sucks is this is a 3rd gen F body with a tiny little trans tunnel and the tall fat super hold servo will not clear the body to come out without unbolting and lowering the trans quite a bit. Not such a big deal, just irritating how I did this to myself again. Making wholesale changes and ending up having to undo them one at a time. I did double check band clearance but I was probably too generous. The superhold only calls for .075-.125 and I bet that .150 is way too much. I am running the Superior 2nd servo with the Sonnax 4th which is unorthodox but it was working fine until Saturday. Should have left it the hell alone.

I think at this point, I'm going to take a few weeks off from this project. Let it sit safe and warm in the garage while I regroup and collect my thoughts. This 4th servo takes lip seals which will certainly be rolled and possibly cut from over extending and being pushed back in by the return spring. It's best that I have a new set on hand before I go back into it.

Positive points are that my TCC is now working. First time in probably 14 years. I also removed the shim from the TV spring and now my shift points are back where I wanted them. "Small steps Sparky" BTW, trans fluid is getting pricey and I've been going through alot of it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #126 (permalink)  
Old 02-05-2014, 09:18 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 12
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Now I'm really kicking myself. The last page of the instructions for the Sonnax 4th servo covers air testing the servo. What a concept. That sure would have saved me alot of trouble at this point. Live and learn.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #127 (permalink)  
Old 02-05-2014, 11:49 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 12
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
After more research, I'm really questioning if the 4th servo could be moving far enough to pass fluid. Even with the dual pistons, it appears that the servo can probably move quite a bit before a piston ring goes past the housing. I also see that the Sonnax 4th servo uses teflon rings and not lip seals. It was the superior servo that used a lip seal. A quick air test will verify whether the servo is okay or not. I'm puzzled as to what else would cause that weird pulsation. I did remove a pressure switch that I had installed in the TCC signal port trying to make the TCC work in more than 4th gear and replaced the switch with a hex plug. I'm wondering if that plug may be too deep and blocking a passage but would that affect 4th?

From the hydraulic schematics, it appears that enough pressure on the 2nd servo circuit could prevent the 3-4 relay valve from moving and thus prevent 4th from engaging.

The changes I made to the hydraulics of the trans were removing the TCC pressure switch and installing the hex plug, removing one .052" shim from the 4th servo, replacing the Transgo gaskets with Transtech gaskets(I have triple checked to be sure that the Transtech gaskets don't block any passages), installing a drilled 4th accumulator piston with spring to support the separator plate against the heavy 2nd accum spring, removing the shim from the TV spring. What have I done wrong?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #128 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2014, 07:40 AM
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: Still running strong
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Lakehills Tx
Posts: 592
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 52
Thanked 44 Times in 42 Posts
Well I think you went just a little over board with the 700. Me being me I still don't fully under stand how an auto works or I just don't see everything working together in my mind. So that being said I didn't get to crazy with modding things, even though I did a few. On an engine I understand everything so I feel comfortable in doing mods, I can see in my head what's going on, on a auto trans I'm not their yet. I think you need to revert to the K.I.S.S. syndrome. I don't think plugging the tcc port or installing a 4th accumulator piston had anything to do with loosing 4th. The others I don't know. I was concerned about your pressures being that high an using the aluminum pistons. I'd check all of them for cracks, I think you should be using the steel pistons.The only other thing is check the valve body gaskets for V on valve body, C on case. Like I said before just get it working right, shifting right an just drive it. Like my old man used to tell me "Are you fixing it or are you f--king with it" That always used to piss me off but I understand more better now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #129 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2014, 12:14 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 12
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Lol. Yeah dogwater, I think you got me there. I actually feel pretty good about how everything has come together on the unit. Yes, I definitely went overboard on it, but that's kinda how I roll. Lol. I'm very sure that no 4th is something simple. All other gears are solid and the shifts are super tight. The roller components took most endplay out of the geartrain so shifts are even better than before. Since 3rd is very strong, I know everything in the input housing is solid. I know what you mean about the steel pistons but my aluminum peices seem to be good for now. I'm pretty sure that it's probably just the servo. I've had this happen on other units I've put together. I'll take care of it in few weeks.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #130 (permalink)  
Old 02-22-2014, 03:30 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 12
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
OH YEAH!!! Got it set up right today and it seems perfect so far. I must have gotten distracted when I was assembling the 4th servo a few weeks ago. The Sonnax 4th servo comes with two shims. One automatically goes in. The other one is for setting up band clearance. I put the thing together with no shim at all. What I thought was band clearance was just the servo housing bottoming out in the case. The air test kinda said it all. The air just blew out the exhaust hole as fast as it went in. Even though the trans tunnel on the 3rd gen F body is tight, I was able to sneak the servo out and back in by just moving the trans around a little and didn't have to completely R&I it. It turns out, the servo I got had already been updated to the D ring piston seals instead of telfon rings and the seals were fine. The post repair air test went quite differently with perfect function of the servo. I did go ahead and R&I and completely clean the 3-4 valve train as well just to be sure.

On the TV valve train, I reinstalled the .050" shim I had tried before along with the Transgo .035" shim that goes with the 2-3 kit. The .035 shim goes under the end of the TV valve blocker that comes with the Transgo kit. The .050 shim that I made up goes around the blocker and adds tension to the spring without affecting total plunger travel. I made up the .050 shim after I decided that the .100 shim I had tried earlier was too much. I also swapped the 1-2 shift valve spring for one 33% softer. The softer spring corrected the issue of a late 1-2 shift. So far the 1-2 shift timing seems perfect. The 3-4 shift seems to be right where it was before the mods. I won't know exactly where full throttle 1-2 and 2-3 shifts are until I can get the car out on some long stretch of back road. The car shifts from 2nd to 3rd at 80mph and even if it shifts from 1st to 2nd at 5,500, there will be noise and tire smoke and I've already driven past two police cars today, so it doesn't feel like a good idea right now. If shifts end up too high, I'll have options on how to correct it. The TV valve train is easy to swap without even dropping the VB. I could also just change governor springs. We'll see how it goes.

Base line pressure now in 3 and D is 120psi cold, 105 hot and rises quickly with throttle. Max line seems to be 280-285 in 1st and 2nd, and 275 in 3rd. I know that higher pressures cause increased heat but I have beefed up the cooling system with 3/8" cooler lines and dual coolers and I have done the Transgo PR valve mod for increased cooler flow, so I hope it will be okay. I know that today after tooling around town, a cruise on the highway and one tire smoke session, the fluid was just warm when I removed the pressure gauge. The former fog light switch turned torque converter control switch works perfectly. In 4th gear, I can turn the converter clutch on and off with the flip of a switch. I love it.

This has been a long saga and I hope that those who have followed my progress or who read this thread later can benefit from my experience. What I have created here, with alot of help from some real pros, is a 700R4 reinvented. There are still ideas in my head for future upgrades, likely sometime around the implant of the new motor. Among them are billet forward and 3-4 clutch pistons. The billet forward piston is available from Sonnax. The 3-4 I will have custom machined because I don't like the idea of a stamped steel piston at 300psi. With the new motor will also come a higher stall converter and the largest boost valves from TCI. Other than those few things, this trans is pretty much bullet proof. There is no off the shelf performance 700R4 offered anywhere that is built like this one. You could have one built if you can find a builder who will actually take the time and effort to go to all of this work. I know of one guy, our man Crosley, but he would probably need a good chunk of change to do it. Crosley would do these mods because he's the one I got the ideas from.

I will write a complete run down of the process I've gone through on this beast of a transmission, detailing all of the mods and parts used, why I did them and how they worked out. I will also point out my mistakes and how to avoid them. It will be somewhat of a novel as this job became quite involved. Most likely I'll get to that Monday morning before the shop opens. For now, I'm off to wash the car and enjoy it some more. OH YEAH!!!

Last edited by ASE Doc; 02-22-2014 at 03:36 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #131 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2014, 07:35 AM
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: Still running strong
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Lakehills Tx
Posts: 592
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 52
Thanked 44 Times in 42 Posts
I'll be looking forward to that write up, it'll be saved.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #132 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2014, 10:23 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 12
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
After a little more road time this weekend, I finally came into the shop this morning and put all of my transmission misc parts and literature away for good I think this time. This trans is everything I want it to be and I am ready at last to just drive it and enjoy it. As with anything men build, there are certainly things that could be changed. The 1-2 spring I installed could be 10% stiffer perhaps, the car at light throttle wants to start out in 2nd gear unless I manual shift it. Of course with the 3,500 stall converter and high line pressure, it won't hurt a thing to let it take off in 2nd at light throttle. Any kind of throttle pressure at all kicks it down to 1st. This just one of those things that I'll notice as I drive it but it's not enough to really worry over. This trans shifts so perfectly, and if I want a higher shift point I can just hold it in manual 1st or any other gear using the B&M shifter. I also am now keenly aware of the sensation of driving a built, small cube SBC with a locked TCC. I don't think I'll be using the lock up anywhere but on the freeway at 65+. The next motor with a few more cubes might not mind so much, we'll see. Again, the thing here is that I can control when the TCC is allowed and when it's not so, no problem.

The main thing is that if I do decide on the next fluid and filter service to change things a little, the only disassembly needed will be dropping the VB itself. Everything else is where it will stay.

Now as promised, the list of mods along with the why and how of each one.

Starting at the front of the unit:

The torque converter is a 3,500, 9.5"(254mm) stall Edge brand with lockup.
I went with Edge because it was slightly less money than Vigilante. Both of these brands were offered by Pro Built Automatics and I worked alot with Dana on this unit. If he sells it, it's a trustworthy part. When ordering the TC, I was asked a list of questions from the peak torque RPM of the motor to my driving style. The Edge TC was custom curved to fit my answers. The result is excellent. There are many fine makers of TCs out there today. I will say here that Edge is one you can trust.

Next is the oil pump. Fluid pressure in these transmissions is critical to the performance and longevity of the unit. The more power you put to the unit, the more pressure it needs to hold the clutches from slipping. Watching various rebuild videos, I saw many who were rebuilding their own pumps. None that I saw were having the pump case remachined. When you have the pump apart, you will see how the rotor creates a wear ring in the case. The basic rule here is that if you can catch a finger nail in this ring, replace the pump. I figure, why even take the chance. A rebuilt pump runs about $125-160. Considering the cost of rebuilding a transmission, this is pocket change. I found a local rebuilder at Oregon Torque Converter who does an excellent job on these pumps, including setting clearance, another critical part of the job.

Next is the input housing. Of all of the rebuilds I looked through, everyone uses the stock factory housing. There are versions offered with hardened shafts and reinforcement rings. The issue I have with the factory housing is the 3-4 clutch pack. GM designed this unit with the 3-4 clutch at the very rear of the housing, retained by a snap ring. The stock housing, with the snap ring groove, provides a limited space for this clutch. HP 3-4 clutch sets add frictions in order to increase holding capacity. Even the factory, on the 4L56E, stepped up to 7 frictions from a maximum of 6 in prior versions. With the limited space provided by the design of the housing, the only way to increase friction count is to go with thinner plates. The first thing most kits do is reduce thickness of the apply and backing plates and the snap ring that holds it all together. When this clutch is applied, there is nothing supporting it from the back. Just the snap ring and backing plate. Thin frictions and steel plates flex under high apply pressure and this flexation can't help but reduce holding power of the clutch. No wonder we see so much failure of this clutch pack. That's why, even though no one else seems to use it, I went with the Sonnax Smart Tech input housing. This is a $500 part and I had to really talk myself into spending the money on this one part, with so much else the unit needed. This one part makes the rebuild very expensive. It also cures absolutely the weakness of the 3-4 clutch. When installed with the shorter 3-4 apply ring(stamped #7) and the tallest input ring gear, the Smart Tech provides an additional .200 of 3-4 clutch capacity. The apply plate that comes with the housing is made from super hard billet steel and does not flex. The housing has no snap ring groove and the backing plate is held on with 15 screws and is also made from super hard billet. This one part transforms the 3-4 clutch. It allows the use of very high apply pressure and with the Transgo 2-3 shift kit produces a rock solid instant 2-3 shift. I don't expect others to go out and drop the cash on this part. But, I have to say it's worth every penny.

I'll continue this write up in another thread.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #133 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2014, 08:36 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 12
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
After the input housing, comes the reaction shaft and sun shell. This for me was an area of some debate. I had used the Beast shell on last year's build along with the Smart Tech Housing and other upgrades. The 3-4 clutches failed after several hundred miles due to cross leaks.(I'll talk about that a little later). I had to tear the unit back down and when I did, along with other damage that had to be dealt with, I found that the bronze thrust washer behind the input sun gear had worn alot more than I expected. Most of this was caused by the complete failure of the 3-4 clutch pack. When a 9 friction, .120" thick, clutch stack disintegrates it creates alot of clearance. Enough in this case for the 3-4 apply plate(pressure plate) to side step the apply ring and place the entire input housing/shaft in a side load, along with the reaction shaft. The bulk of this side load was carried by the input shaft and the front stator support bushing, all of which I replaced. But the wear on the bronze thrust washer bugged me. I thought of how insufficient that washer is under severe loads and no wonder GM replaced it with a bearing in the 4L65E.

That led me to take a whole new approach in the build. I decided that I would go into the unit a 3rd time and replace all thrust washers with bearings. To this end, I sourced a late style reaction carrier that accepts a bearing in place of the washer. PATC offers this part, since the OE parts are hard to find used. Of course, it would seem like the local GM dealer could just as easily provide this part. I don't know what the difference in price might be. A warning to anyone going this route: I was under the impression that I could easily use my 4 pinion planet with the bearing style reaction shaft. I found out that the late style carrier is machined slightly different than the early style and the bearing that comes with the late style carrier doen't match up to the 4 pinion planet. This leaves a few options for correcting the problem. I spent an hour resizing the bearing to work and meticulously cleaning it of filings. Not the method I would prefer to use. A better way to go would be to source a different bearing that fits both parts. A good bearing supplier would have a bearing that would work. Another, more expensive but perhaps better still method would be to simply source a 5 pinion planet. The key to success here would be to make sure you leave yourself plenty of time to test fit parts and make sure everything fits together before you do the final assembly. I put myself in a spot where I had to get things together. That left me to figure out how to get it done with what I had on hand. I spoke with Dana at Pro Built who told me that he has had the early style reaction carrier machined to accept a bearing order to avoid these issues.

At this point, I was left with thrust washers behind the sun shell and in front of the reverse input housing. The Sonnax Smart Shell addresses the washer behind the sun shell. The smart shell deletes the washer and instead uses a bearing that, along with a specially machined roller clutch race, supports the sun shell against the rear planet carrier and removes the load from the captured bearing. I don't know if the bearing is really an issue. None of the pros who helped me on this think it is, however, this mod does away with one more thrust washer. By supporting the shell on the thrust bearing, it also makes the assembly more solid and stable than it is from the factory. Crosley, who I have geat respect for and who's expert advice has been invaluable to me through this project, has concerns about the strength of the smart shell, since it's only slightly thicker than the OE shell that fails often under heavy stress. I spoke with Sonnax and was assured that while they have not torque tested the part, "they have it running behind 1,000hp big blocks and have not had one fail yet". I decided since I will never get close to 1,000hp, the benefit of deleting thrust washers was worth the risk of going with the lighter shell. The Smart shell looks like a tough piece with heat treated splines and lugs and its fit and function is excellent, like all of the Sonnax parts I used.

To delete the last remaining washer, in front of the reverse input housing, I found a kit online, offered by Greater Dimensions Engineering, that did the trick. This kit includes a thrust bearing and a slightly shorter front bushing that allows the bearing to locate on the stator support without interference with the bushing. Greater Dimensions claims that the kit reduces reverse input housing end play to .005". I didn't have that result on my build. I ended up with about .015" Still, when you consider that GM doesn't even provide a spec for this and that ATSG says that .075 -.125 is fine, .015 seems pretty good. The relationship between the rev input housing and the reaction shell, and the relationship of the assembly created by these two parts with the case that it rides in, is largely overlooked in every rebuild I have reviewed. As I assembled this unit with these upgraded parts, I realized how much better this assembly is now supported. The Smart Shell's bearing and its snug fit to the rear sun gear, along with the bearing between it and the reaction shaft, keeps it firmly located and it turns super smooth in the bearings. The rev input drum is now held much more firmly against the sun shell that it engages in reverse, second and 4th and it is now supported by a bearing at the front and turns very smoothly. This assembly could be improved further by bringing the endplay down closer to .005, using shims, but for now it's good to go.

To ensure tight tolerances throughout the unit, I installed all new bushings and thrust bearings(where they weren't already provided by the above mods). The new pump from Oregon Torque Converter came with updated stator support bushings. The front bushing is teflon coated to reduce wear and the rear bushing is extra wide and PTFE coated to increase support of the input housing assembly. The reaction shaft from PATC came with new aluminum bushings installed(the later GM units got aluminum bushings for added wear resistance). The rev input drum is new to work with the extra wide band The only bushings left in the unit were the front sun gear and the rear case bushing. These checked out to be in excellent shape so they were left alone.

Finally, the valve body, servos and shift kit. These are the components that make the now solidly built transmission shift the way I want it to. What it really all comes down to, is what you want for shift behavior. What one person likes, another person may say is too firm or too soft. By the time I got to this final run-through, I was pretty familiar with the factors that produce firmer, or softer shifts. The build from 14 years ago had produced a 1-2 shift that I never liked. It would slam bang into 2nd at light throttle, low speeds, especially when you were going easy not expecting it. The effect was often very upsetting and even produced some colorful and load verbage from me on many occasions. I hated how this made me feel about the car that I had otherwise built almost entirely with my own hands. It bugged me enough that when the 14 year old trans build began to fail, I was willing to delve into building the unit myself.

For this build, I started out using the same valvebody, with what mods had already been done to it 14 years(25Kmi) ago. The changes I did make were to the 1-2 shift controls. The major change I made was to the accumulator itself. The previous builder had installed a weird, high coil count, light tension spring that I have never seen in another transmission. It and the extra heavy accumulator valve spring were the cause of the bang shift at light throttle. The prior build also included a Corvette servo and enlarged orifices in the separator plate to produce a firm 1-2 shift. I upgraded to the Superior Fairbanks 2nd servo. It has the largest apply area of any 2nd servo and thus produces the the greatest force against the band. With the large servo, I installed the Transgo black 2nd accumulator valve spring and a heavy brown 2nd accumulator piston spring from PATC. I don't know who makes this spring but it seems to be the stiffest spring available for the 2nd accumulator. With the Transgo shift kit installed(including a .157" 2nd clutch orifice, the 1-2 shift is perfect for my taste, as is the 2-3 downshift. What I think has happened is that the large servo actually slows apply just a little from that of the Vette servo, thus preventing a harsh shift. A firm but never harsh shift and the most apply force possible make a winning combination in my book. The band is the extra wide carbon fiber piece with reinforced anchors from Alto.

For third gear, I now run 8, .077" Borg Warner high energy frictions with 6, .080" steels and 1, .096" steel to adjust clearance. Pro Built says to set 3-4 clutch clearance between .045-.055". After the 3-4 clutch failed last summer, aside from solving a few cross leaks, I modified the Smart Tech input housing to help keep the 3-4 clutches cool. While the factory housing uses a snap ring behind the 3-4 clutch that allows fluid to pass out of the housing and through the clutch stack, the Smart Tech has the bolt on backing plate, machined for a snug fit, with no way for fluid to pass through. This means that cooling fluid from the 3-4 clutch is trapped at the back of the housing, along with the heat it should be carrying away. To solve this, I drilled a ring of 5, .125" holes around the housing just in front of the backing plate. These holes will not affect the housing's brute strength but allow ample fluid movement through the 3-4 clutch pack.

After the premature failure of the 3-4 clutches, along with correcting the cross leaks that caused the failure, I installed the Pro Built Automatics/Transgo 2-3 shift kit. I wanted to make sure this time that 3rd gear was rock solid. The kit from Pro Built is pretty much the Transgo kit with the addition of 2nd gear accumulation. I left my 2nd accumulator setup like I had it already since the 1-2 shift was great the way it was. The benefit of the kit for me is the 3rd gear shift modifications. I already had installed the Transgo CS-7 high rev spring kit. The 2-3 kit deletes the 3rd accumulator to speed application of the 3-4 clutches, reducing slippage and heat. The affect is a quick firm 3rd gear apply. Whether its from 2-3 or from 4-3, the shift is instant and solid. I'm not sure this is a mod I would recommend without using a high stall converter. Especially not with high line pressure, as it produces a pretty firm 3rd gear apply. But for me, with my combination, the result is excellent.

For 4th gear, I went with the Sonnax Superhold 4th servo. The super hold is a cool piece with dual; pistons that really increases apply area. It has the largest apply area of any 4th servo. This, along with plenty of apply pressure, will help prevent slippage of the band in 4th gear.

For fluid cooling, I swapped out the wimpy OE 5/16" lines for 3/8" lines. The swap is as easy as switching the fittings at the transmission and bending new lines. The stock fittings are 1/4" pipe/ 5/16" tube, inverted flair fittings. I picked up 1/4" pipe/ 3/8" tube, inverted flair fittings from the local hardware store. Then I bent and fit 3/8" lines to the car. At the front of the radiator, I mounted dual tube and fin 25Klb payload coolers so that air drawn through the radiator is forced through the coolers. The system so far seems to work very well. I'm not worried about the fluid being too cool. I've heard others say they had the problem of their transmission not shifting right when the fluid was too cold. If my transmission didn't shift right when the fluid was cold, I would take that to mean something is wrong in the transmission. I never drive this car in cold weather anyway.

Along with the Pro Built shift kit, another mod to the valve body is the Sonnax line boost kit and TV plunger and bushing. I went with the HP version of the TV plunger/bushing kit that has the part throttle detent ports deleted. This allows for full throttle 3-4 upshifts and holding 4th gear at full throttle and high speeds. This trans holds 4th gear at full throttle above 80mph. Sonnax says this part should only be used, either on applications under 250hp, or when the unit is modified to maintain plenty of apply pressure on the 3-4, forward, and holding clutch(2-4 band). In my case, I don't think I need to worry about low apply pressures anymore. Plus, I manually shift into and out of 4th gear. The high stall converter is a big help with line pressure and line rise as it reduces torque load on the transmission at lower input speeds, when pressure tends to be lower. It allows the pump to get spinning and pressure to come up before full torque load is placed on the clutches.

That pretty much covers this transmission build. I have learned a great deal about the 700R4. Best part of all of this is that now there is no part of this car that is a mystery to me. Every part of the car is built by me. And the transmission is one more part that is built just the way I want it with almost zero compromise. There is still some room for future improvement. Billet pistons in the input housing, 5 pinion planets, and a severe duty input shaft are all still on the table. Maybe next time. I also plan to install the TCI .570 main boost and .400 low/rev boost valves when I go to higher stall with the new engine in the future.

In summary:

My build consists of-

Edge 3,500 stall, 9.5" torque converter with lock up.
Rebuilt oil pump with high rev spring and Transgo steel pump rings(Oregon Torque Converter).
Sonnax Smart Tech Input housing with 8 BW high energy clutches in the 3-4 clutch and cooling holes drilled.
Alto clutches throughout the rest of the unit with an extra wide carbon fiber 2-4 band.
Superior super hold 2nd servo, Sonnax super hold 4th servo.
Pro Built Automatics shift kit with my own 2nd accumulator settings.
Fully rollerized geartrain(no thrust washers).
Viton input shaft/output shaft seal + oil slinger on rear planet carrier just because.
3 viton o-rings (AS-568 dash size -115) 11/16" x 7/8" x 3/32" in place of filter/ pump seal.
Sonnax HP TV plunger and bushing set with .050 shim on spring. This along with Transgo TV valve and blocker(part of shift kit). .035" shim under blocker.(33% lighter spring in the 1-2 shift valve to correct 1-2 shift timing)
Sonnax Line booster kit(.500 main boost valve & .297 low rev boost valve) with TCI purple PR valve spring.
Sonnax Smart Shell sun shell(part of rollerizing unit)
PATC late style(takes thrust bearing) hardened reaction shaft.
Greater Dimensions Engineering front pump Torrington and bushing kit.
All updated bushings including a Sonnax double wide rear sun gear bushing.
3/8" cooler lines and dual fluid /air coolers, mounted to front of radiator core.
TCC controls wired to operate in 4th gear when dash mounted switch is activated.

I will take this opportunity to once again give thanks to all those who offered input on this build. Every bit of advice was given consideration and it all came together to lead me in the direction that I have taken. I give special thanks to Crosley, my friend and our resident transmission guru. Also special thanks to my friend Dana at Pro Built Automatics. This project would not have been finished without the help of these two transmission masters. Crosley(excuse me my friend for breaking your annonimity) ahs written articles which are posted on the Purple Sage Trading Post website as part Tony's 700R4 pages you can find this write up with a little searching. Don't forget to make a small donation to keep the site going. I gave $10 some time ago and got information upon which no dollar value can be placed. I have revisited that site several times for a quick reminder.

For those who read this thread or come across it looking for information, I hope it helps you. I have suffered sleepless nights during parts of this process and I hope that by reading this, you can avoid some of the pitfalls I have run into.

The lessons that I will take away from this are as follows: You can't be too clean when building a transmission. Make sure your work area, hands, and tools are super clean. Take your time, you can never be careful enough, especially on something that's new to you. When you think you've checked everything, check once more. Air test your clutch apply circuits before you finish assembly(if you really follow all of the instructions in the ATSG manual, you will be doing this). Don't skip that step. Air testing will verify that you have done the assembly of the applies correctly, before you waste time and fluid finding out that you got something wrong. I mentioned cross leaks earlier. The cross leaks that killed my first set of 3-4 clutches, and led to the ruin of a new pump and input shaft, were the result of not getting separator plate plugs completely flat. If you use the Transgo plate, you will be installing plugs, whether you do a shift kit or not. It is vital that you file any plugs completley flat to prevent cross leaks. I found that it's better if you think you may have cut the plug down a little below flat than to have it too high. Do not reinstall steel check balls. If your case isn't already damaged from the steel balls beating against it, it will be. When you do use torlon check balls, in order to be sure that they seal correctly, you need to create a seat for each ball to seat against. Unlike the hard steel balls, the lightweight torlon balls will never create their own seats on the separator plate, as they are softer than the steel plate. In order to create a seat for each ball, use a slightly larger ball(I used a 5/16" ball bearing from the hardware store). Place the separator plate on a smooth concrete floor or on a piece of clean flat steel plate. Place steel ball on the check ball seat of the separator plate and give it a couple of sharp whacks with a small steel hammer. You don't want to deform the plate, just shine up the ball seat and ensure that it's round and true for the torlon ball to seal against.


I should be more embarrassed for the dumb mistakes I made on this project. I diagnose and repair 3-6 cars a day, with a very low comeback rate. If I made these kind of blunders at work, I'd never get a car out the door and/or I'd be overrun with comebacks. Why I had so much trouble focusing on my own car that I love, I can only say that maybe I have a hard time focusing when I get a little excited. So much going on, so many ideas in my mind, and I drop the ball on simple things. It helps me to create a clear game plan before I start work, even make a list to follow, so that I don't miss anything. It helps more to actually follow the list and not deviate from it fool with other stuff so that I forget important steps like installing servo shims.

Last edited by ASE Doc; 02-24-2014 at 08:41 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #134 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2014, 08:38 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 204
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 12
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Wow. My write up reads like novel. Don't feel bad. I do the same thing to my service writers at work. I hope that you don't mind the reading. I really did try to cover everything in as few words as possible.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #135 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2014, 09:00 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Atlantilc iowa
Posts: 432
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 26 Times in 26 Posts
Like I said on feb 4th, AIN'T they fun. I'm not one for the 700 4r, but I like your dedication to the project of doing your own, and learning. That is why I kept up on your build and problems, because I like and learn from it. I haven't had any major problems with my 200 4r build, but if I do, i'll go after it like you did. Keep after it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Transmission - Rearend posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
700R4 pressures? ASE Doc Transmission - Rearend 2 06-25-2013 02:27 PM
700r4 pressures grumpy1 Transmission - Rearend 8 01-14-2009 09:23 AM
700R4 Pressures yellabelly Transmission - Rearend 1 08-28-2007 10:40 AM
700r4 TV Pressures postal jeepster Transmission - Rearend 3 05-11-2007 06:33 PM
700R4 pressures Not A T 25 Transmission - Rearend 10 06-06-2006 10:04 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.