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Old 10-24-2008, 12:31 PM
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700r4 shifting flareup

Hi guys, a little background: '85 C10 4x2, 305, originally had a THM350, had replaced it with a 700R4.

I got the 700R4 put in in August (2 months ago). It was used, out of an '87 C10 4x2. I don't know the history about it, and pretty much just had the seller's word to go on. He said it was working great when it was pulled.

I got a licensed-but-backyardy mechanic I know of to put it in.

Since it was put in, it was shifting kind of late, and softly. If I'm putting around downtown, I'm pretty much just screaming around in 1st gear.

He said it was the TV cable, so he adjusted it another "hair" he said... No difference.

After a few weeks in, I started noticing that it slips and revs high between gears. More notably on the 2-3 shift.

But it's only flaring up like that when it's warm. When it's cold, it shifts without flaring up, although still a soft mushy shift.

The 1-2 shift is fairly firm when cold. When warm, it sometimes flares lightly.

I played with the TV cable this morning, and tried tightening it, loosening it, it doesn't seem to vary the shift points much, and it still revs up on the 2-3 shift.

I figured the TV valve was sticking, so I tried freeing it by yanking the cable in and out fast with the engine idling.. I got it to a point where the shift points seem better, but it still flares up on the shifts.

What's causing the flareups? The clutch packs?

Any ideas? I'm not a greasehead, but can handle a bit. Although any taking-out of the tranny would have to be done by someone other than me.

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Old 10-24-2008, 02:59 PM
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Hows the fluid level and condition? Plugged filter?

These are signs of a high mileage or abused trans. Low line pressure is a result of all the little internal leaks of the various seals that are on the shafts and pistons that actually apply the clutch packs. Heat and constant cycling just wears them out.

If the TV adjustment is making a difference then it is not stuck.
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Old 10-24-2008, 03:20 PM
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The fluid looks good, but is really high on the dipstick. I mean 2-3 inches PAST the max mark. I don't know if this is the right dipstick, but it's the one that came with the tranny from the guy I bought it from.

I asked the mechanic if the filter was good, he said he checked it and it was fine. That might mean he didn't check it at all.

A mechanic at a local transmission shop said it wouldn't be the filter, because it would be slow to go into gear when I put it in drive or reverse. Although when I shift it into drive, it "slams" into gear hard causing the truck to lurch pretty hard. He said that's cuz the manual valve sticking (or tv valve? can't remember which he said) in the valve body.

Another mechanic at a local tranny shop said that the gears slipping would not have anything to do with the valve body, that it is the clutch packs.

But I thought the valve body controls the application of the clutch packs, so if it's got blockages, could that not cause the slipping because the clutch pack isn't applying?

-If the tranny is overfilled that much, what problems can that cause?
-Is the slipping necessarily caused by the clutch packs? Could it be a sticky valve in the valve body?
-While adjusting the tv cable seems to have made a bit of difference, it wasn't substantial. Is the tv valve sticking? Could this cause the slipping as well?
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Old 10-24-2008, 06:16 PM
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In order more or less.

Quote:
The fluid looks good, but is really high on the dipstick. I mean 2-3 inches PAST the max mark. I don't know if this is the right dipstick, but it's the one that came with the tranny from the guy I bought it from.
Fluid is checked in park, hot, idling. At full, no higher.

Quote:
I asked the mechanic if the filter was good, he said he checked it and it was fine. That might mean he didn't check it at all.
You can't 'check' a filter unless you cut it apart.


Quote:
A mechanic at a local transmission shop said it wouldn't be the filter, because it would be slow to go into gear when I put it in drive or reverse. Although when I shift it into drive, it "slams" into gear hard causing the truck to lurch pretty hard. He said that's cuz the manual valve sticking (or tv valve? can't remember which he said) in the valve body.
What's your idle RPM. Shouldn't really slam into gear. You stated the TV adj. does make a difference, no?

Quote:
Another mechanic at a local tranny shop said that the gears slipping would not have anything to do with the valve body, that it is the clutch packs.
He is right for the most part.

Quote:
But I thought the valve body controls the application of the clutch packs, so if it's got blockages, could that not cause the slipping because the clutch pack isn't applying?
Yes, but basically no.

If trans level went UP from when checked properly, look for trans fluid in your cooling system, and coolant in your trans.- AND overfilling is not good. It will not prevent the trans from slipping.

If your manual valve (the valve that moves when the shifter moves) is in between passages (mis-adjusted) this will cause a mess. Do you hear and feel distinct clicks when dropped into gear?

At this point, since you have local trans shops around, take it in for a pressure check. I know you are wanting to DIY but I think this should be the next step. We have to be systematic and thorough to get it right.
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Old 10-24-2008, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Fluid is checked in park, hot, idling. At full, no higher.
That's how I checked it. Wiped the dipper and re-dipped.

Quote:
What's your idle RPM. Shouldn't really slam into gear. You stated the TV adj. does make a difference, no?
It slams regardless of whether the truck is idling high when cold, or low when hot. Although when it's idling high it obviously slams in harder than when low.

Well I adjusted the TV cable this morning, and found that it didn't seem to matter where I set it. When I finally finished and drove to work with it, I felt that it was shifting lower, although I just got back from my lunch break a little while ago and it was definitely still shifting late. So, adjusting the TV did NOT make any (or much) diff.

Quote:
If trans level went UP from when checked properly, look for trans fluid in your cooling system, and coolant in your trans.- AND overfilling is not good. It will not prevent the trans from slipping.
I will check the fluids tomorrow morning since it's 9:30pm right now, and I'm off at midnight tonight and it'll be dark.

Quote:
If your manual valve (the valve that moves when the shifter moves) is in between passages (mis-adjusted) this will cause a mess. Do you hear and feel distinct clicks when dropped into gear?
Yeah I think it was the TV valve that he said. I had manual valves on the brain.. When I move the shifter, it clicks distinctly into gear like it should.

Quote:
At this point, since you have local trans shops around, take it in for a pressure check
Ok. What will that tell us? If it's high/low/etc.

Also I have read about a product called K-W Trans-X, supposed to be good for freeing sticky valves in trannies. Any opinion on it?
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Old 10-24-2008, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Ok. What will that tell us? If it's high/low/etc.
It gives an indication of an internal problem.

Quote:
Also I have read about a product called K-W Trans-X, supposed to be good for freeing sticky valves in trannies. Any opinion on it?
Put the money and effort towards a rebuild.
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Old 10-24-2008, 09:32 PM
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^^^ or a new re-maned tranny as it maybe cheaper and even if its not it will work and have some kind of warrenty rather than some guys word i mean you may have already burned out the clutches and just because he said it was working great dosen't mean anything he might not have noticed the problem or mybe he just didn't care and wanted your money i think a re-man will give you fewer headaches and less down time i might not be as old or experianced as most of you but it seems like you got hosed and that removing this trans and installing a known good is a safer plan plus this way if you want you can re-build this trans at a pace thats convienent for you and you won't be under any pressure to get it done quick therefore reducing the risk of a mistake sorry to be a little pessamistic but thats just what seems logical to me
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Old 10-25-2008, 08:36 AM
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C-10, I checked the fluids this morning, the tranny fluid is red and has kind of a candy smell to it, not burnt. My coolant looks good and green, and doesn't smell off. And again the trans fluid was too high on the dipstick. That got me thinking, How could the tranny even be filled that high? If it's that much overfull, where is it holding it all? It can't be the right stick, or it must not be sitting right.. If it is that overfull, then would there be a reason the mechanic did it? Would it hide something?



Quote:
Originally Posted by C-10
Put the money and effort towards a rebuild.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 92RMSJMM
or a new re-maned tranny as it maybe cheaper and even if its not it will work and have some kind of warrenty rather than some guys word i mean you may have already burned out the clutches and just because he said it was working great dosen't mean anything he might not have noticed the problem or mybe he just didn't care and wanted your money i think a re-man will give you fewer headaches and less down time i might not be as old or experianced as most of you but it seems like you got hosed and that removing this trans and installing a known good is a safer plan plus this way if you want you can re-build this trans at a pace thats convienent for you and you won't be under any pressure to get it done quick therefore reducing the risk of a mistake sorry to be a little pessamistic but thats just what seems logical to me
Yeah I don't exactly make a lot of money, and this truck is not quite "mint condition". Spending what I did on getting this tranny put in was quite a bit for me already, and I am wishing now that I just got the Turbo 350 rebuilt instead.. Hindsight is always 20-20.

The idea here is that I want to avoid spending a bunch of money if I don't have to.
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Old 10-25-2008, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
C-10, I checked the fluids this morning, the tranny fluid is red and has kind of a candy smell to it, not burnt. My coolant looks good and green, and doesn't smell off. And again the trans fluid was too high on the dipstick. That got me thinking, How could the tranny even be filled that high? If it's that much overfull, where is it holding it all? It can't be the right stick, or it must not be sitting right.. If it is that overfull, then would there be a reason the mechanic did it? Would it hide something?
The over-full could have been an honest mistake. You are checking on level ground, right? If so, you should get the trans to 'full' and no higher. The actual fluid level should be roughly to the top of the pan.

The cans of 'trans-fix' very seldom make a difference on one that is too far gone.
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Old 10-25-2008, 10:00 AM
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A used transmission is just that ... used. Junk yards often tell folks the parts must be good because the car was moving when it crashed.

If the trans is full of fluid when hot , engine idle , on level ground , the trans should work. That also requires the filler tube and dipstick to match so the reading is correct.

If the trans is over filled slightly , that will not affect anything.

As the trans gets hot and starts acting up ( Shift / engine RPM flare up)... there is a pressure loss.

i sure wish I had better answers for you.

A tear down and inspection will help.... then a proper rebuild.



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Old 10-25-2008, 10:14 PM
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what i would do is price out each option and then get the best you can afford without sacraficing anything major but i would deffinatly try to get some kind of warrenty
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Old 10-29-2008, 12:32 PM
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So money's tight, I figured I'd try throwing some magic slop into it and see if it improves anything.


I read great things about K-W Trans-X, but where I'm at in Canada, I could only order it online from an American site for about $30 plus customs... So I got Lucas Transmission Fix instead for $15, which I also read good things about.

Since putting it in last week, the truck is shifting firmer, the 1-2 shift is almost perfect, although the 2-3 shift still flares up sometimes, but isn't as bad as before. The 3-4 shift seemed good the once or twice I got fast enough to hit it. Speedo's not hooked up, but I figure it was about 120km/h or more (75mph+) when it hit 4th.

So it's still shifting late, I haven't tried adjusting the TV cable since putting that fluid in, but I'm not sure I will, because if the slip is because of pressure loss, but my TV is tight, thus raising the pressure, then I think I'd rather put up with slightly higher shift points than lower the pressure and ruin it faster.

If it's just the clutch pack on the 2-3 shift anyway, then I'll take it easy on that shift and see if it gets worse, hopefully it'll last me the winter or the next year or so, then I can worry about throwing more money at it later.
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Old 10-29-2008, 02:05 PM
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I just installed one and let me say this:

You will never be able to adjust or troubleshoot this transmission without a pressure gauge attached. Trying to set the TV without one is never going to work.
If you look at Bowties website they have some very good instruction on how to setup and troubleshoot this transmission. Also goes into the lockup settings.
Good LucK
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Old 10-29-2008, 06:48 PM
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I've set and corrected incorrect TV cable setups for decades without a pressure guage installed.

I do not intend to say that a pressure gauge is never needed for the diagnose of a problem with this transmission.

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Old 11-26-2008, 03:57 PM
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Update:

I took the truck in to a different Trans shop last week, and the verdict from there was that the 2-4 band is worn. He said that because that band is worn, it affects the shift into 2nd, and the shift into 4th.

What he thinks is:

-I am getting 1, 3, and 4. Not 1, 2, and 3 like I thought.
-It shifts late from first because it can't go into 2nd.
-The first shift it makes is not from 1st to 2nd, but in fact from 1st to 3rd. He says that he can feel it "lightly" go into 2nd, but then go right into 3rd.
-And it flares up going from 3rd to 4th, not 2nd to 3rd like I thought.


My questions:
-Would a worn 2-4 band would explain why it's skipping 2nd and flaring before going into 4th?

-My shifter can go into 1,2,D,OD. What I have been doing, is putting it in "2", driving til it revs high in the 2nd (or 3rd, whichever it is) gear, then let off the gas, and click it up to "D", so it goes into the next gear.
I questioned that because If I have the shifter in "2", how could it go into 3rd? And when I click the shifter up to "D", how could it go into 4th? His answer was that because it can't shift into 2nd like it's supposed to, it will go up to 3rd despite the shifter being in "2". Same for it going into 4th when I have it in "D". Does that sound right?
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