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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-21-2008, 09:38 AM
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Cisco,,,
you are to funny...post #15 says my tire burning days are done (like mine)....and now you want to burn rubber....AND chirp the hides on a shift!

1974 L82 is to far back for me to recall details but it was only a 8.5CR? 250HP motor same as the 8.5CR=150psi 250HP you have now....
if you were chirping the hides with 3.08 gears it was very like due to "ALL the parts "tuned" and designed to work together" for peak performance as F-bird posted

On the 74' vette, the tranny shift vacuum and rpm's modulator valves rpm's shift points were tuned to the cam shaft (which was a WOT "mid range power" 222/222 cam) and dist curved to work with that camshaft and CR (correct spark timing can be 30HP gained over the whole rpm's range) ....

crummy mpg and a dog can be from many things (read your plugs) but
'fair chance" your tranny does need some attention...maybe just the bands adjusted for better shifts or a correct $15 vac modulator tuned to the rv cam...tranny's do need a tune up....(I do not believe in "a fix in a can" at all but I've have seen good improvements in shift quality with the $9 Lucas Tranny conditioner/cleaner many times)

can you tune the tranny and motor to chirp the tires with truck heads/2.73 gears/rv cam/and tall(?) tires.....IF this car does weigh about 300-400lbs+ less than the vette did....probably-maybe-yes with maybe a shift kit also needed

re: gear swaps
this is the best (basics) article I've found for explaining all about gears

http://www.pontiacpower.org/reargear.htm

Re: rebuild
you can buy a "brand new" GM complete 250HP long block for $1500 (which will also comp test at 8.5CR= 150-160psi!!!!) ....basic re-machine a block and heads is about $1300 around here (454 left out balancing and cleaning) plus $300 for the parts...assembled and tested is $1800/3 year warentee....you can buy a 290HP (on open tube headers) brand new GM long block for $2000 for a better chance of "chirping" the hides (270hp with exhaust pipes)

re:mpg
just mount your vac guage on the dash so you can read it while driving to know how hard the motor is actually working.... and re-train you right foot to keep it above about 12Hg accelerating.... and tune the motor for max Hg at hwy cruise speed will gain you atleast 2-3mpg+ combo intown/hwy
I'm guessing that your car weigh's 3,000lbs...with the rv cam the guage should be reading 18Hg+ at 60mph on a level road (really tweeked it may read 20Hg)
hard to read in the pic' attached but it does say "poor gas mileage" in the yellow/brown band below the "best economy" green band"
Hg reads low=carb is rich
hg read high=carb is lean

edit: LOL...thought about it...can the rv cam "chirp" the tires???....kinda depends on how much weight is in the rear and no posi allowed....might only be a "cheeeeep" on a "open rear"....which is likely what you had on the vette to chirp them

ps: which model Edelbrock did you buy
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 03-22-2008, 12:25 AM
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'76 sbc build , need more head advice

Thanks Red
How do I tune for Hg,just by changing jets?carb is 1406.I bought a vaccumn gauge, but it'll be awhile before I can get out, still snow here.Frickin tired of it.
When I started planning this car the advise I got,even fron the trany shop was to use a TH350.It is a rebuilt with a stage 1 shift kit, but it doesn't shift stiff.Trany shop now says I need a stage 2 kit.Theres goes $20 in trany fluid if I do anything,grrrr. I didn't know a trany could be tuned to a car??.
AAANNND I don't need the car to do wheelies, I'm trying to do the only comparison I can relate to as to how I think the car should run.MY '02 Malibo is prob faster, but my lawntractor is slower.
I checked shop prices were a bit more here.I'm getting my friends sbc,low miles,doubt it had 5000 miles on it,price is cheap.Rebuilt by a good shop, forged piston & crank,462 heads,valve spring seats cut down etc.He says it has 10:1 flat tops,but never used hi-test gas.It had a 290? 500 cam and a 3500 stall.I don't want that set up.I'm thinking of a Lunati 60102 cam because of cr, stall change maybe.If I didn't just buy the TH 350, I'd prob look at a 700r. Cisco

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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 03-22-2008, 11:44 AM
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1406 is set up more for economy out of the box...98 jets and .075 cruise rod step, .047 rich rod step....for normal driving intown "pep" it may be a bit lean.... but.... as always..... tune the carb last

(a comment: 90% of my driving is intown, a .072 cruise rod/98 jet makes a world of difference for "pep" on my "particular" set up and combo"....for a tiny bit better hwy mpg I do stick the .075 rods in it for the 500 mile round trip to my daughters home...cause I'm turning 70mph=3400rpms!)

(hope this is clear enough, numbers are only to illustrate, your will be different) )
every motor/tune up/car/gears/etc has a TT "sweet spot" at hwy cruise where the motor is "totally loafing as much as possible" which is what the vac guage is telling you....that base+cent+vac= TT can be anywhere from 44*-54* "if" you were cruising at 2800-3200 so that the cent advance is all in....(very likely the "truck" this dist came out of did cruise 70mph=3200)

the great thing about a relatively low CR motor and a relatively light car is it will tolerate a "wicked quick" cent curve with out detonation....just adding even a tiny bit more timing sooner makes way more hp/tq at those rpms for alot more pep accelerating...."fair" chance your ride can tolerate all in full centrifugal timing 20* at only 2500-2800 (to also gain more cent timing at your 2k cruise rpms)....(and that's why I posted (definitely) recurve the dist will give some balls....

(some dist's have adjustable vac advance some don't....some can adjust only 10 crank*'s, some adjust upto 20 crank*'s+....some clockwise is more *'s/some counter clockwise is more....find the screw turns spec table for your unit if you can...to verify it is working correct)

most common is they adjust using a 3/32" hex....so to find best TT cruise timing Hg @ 2k, just measure the no vac advance actual timing at 2k (say it reads 28*after the re-curve at 2k) then plug in the vac advance at a low idle rpm to a manifold source to see how many *'s are added by the vac adv to the (say 14*) base...(say the) timing with vac adv plugged in at 500rpms reads 24*=that vac adv unit is set to add a max of only 10*'s additional to the cruise total (likely on a truck dist) when the Hg is high (most are all in/max *'s added at about 16Hg+ just for reference at 500rpms idle)

we now know at 60mph your motor is only at 38*TT...2k=14b+14c+10v...

vac adv plugged in, read the motor HG in your garage at 2k (= max Hg the motor will make with "no load" on the motor at 2k) (say it is 20Hg)....now go for a test drive at 2k with 38*...Hg reads (say) 15 on a level road at 60mph "with a load" on the motor (likely with only 38*).... add about 4* more vac advance *'s to the TT by turning the adjust screw (and read how much was added by that particular unit by comparing to the 14*base...note: one full turn may add 2* or add 8* all are calibrated different for the original oem car/truck drive train combo)...and test drive again...Hg reads 16...add 4 more vac adv and try again...etc...

just a guess but somewhere around 48*TT your Hg will read 18 and more vac*'s added won't read higher....adding more than needed btdc timing total actually works against the motor...

it read 20Hg with no load at 2k in the garage....it read 15Hg(?) with 38* at 2k and a load.....now reads 18Hg(!) with a load at 2k =less gas into the motor...it's that simple (very very roughly, each Hg added typically can be/will be worth 2-3mpg more hwy mpg)

when you do add more vac adv *'s to the TT....it also adds more *'s with less Hg/more load so you do need to check for heavy throttle ping on a steep grade...hope this unit's chart pic' helps explain (that is not your vac unit calibration..happens to be a Accell unit and reads in dist *'s...)

"fair to good chance" that once the dist is set up correct for the cam and cr and car weight...the tranny will shift better...you may well be down 20- 30HP/50+ft/lbss at it's present shift points WOT....don't tune the tranny till after the motor is tuned

yup, when you mix and match parts to build a ride....
"every" part needs to be re-tuned to work best with that combo....
find the build sheet on any oem car or truck....there are about 50 to 100 specific parts selected for that specific car combo...including parts in the tranny (and which specific model dist curve and vac adv unit) ....

"flaming cats" did crack me up...but likely women would be whackin' you side your head with their purses! (maybe "ghost" painted flaming cats?...like "ghost flames!)
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 03-22-2008, 02:36 PM
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Nope. Prices included cleaning the block, and included all the parts (300.00 kit from summit), and heads are cleaned with a valve job.

No need to balance on a low rpm engine. Besides, that money would be better spent boring with torque plates. and that isn't necessary in this build.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:38 PM
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'76 sbc build , need more head advice

Thanks RED, I'll have to re-read that post a few times.Any chance you like to see some cold weather soon, yer welcome to show me.
I'm getting another motor, was going to drain my oil to strip the car,(may not put it in for awhile now).Fired up the car,& WTH, cleared the ice in front of garage and went for a ride.I actually never tried a burn out before in this, laid 2 patches 30 feet/posi.OK just like my crap Vet.My AMX woulda smoked for a block.Lawn tractor is good fun in top gear off the septic bed tho. :o)
I put all new suspenion with sway bars on this 38 chev and it's not a car I want to drive fast,still rides like original.PS rack with Heits PS valve and steering still touchy.I punched her a few, has some snap.I think it'd sound and go better with a quadj.So drove her 30 miles ,used almost half a tank o gas.Has anyone ever seen a hot rod with a civic motor?Tomorrow will look at vac gauge.
RED: I like women hitting me with purses, better than boys any day.
My cats are mens cats,big MFs[IMG]T&cis 08.jpg[/IMG] ,all mine have titles too. Cisco
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2008, 02:27 PM
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'76 sbc build , need more head advice

Hey Red & OldBoogie. I was reading thread on poor mpg,kinda like mine.I need your advise.I put the used motor in my car to get her running and was planning on a 383 later when I had the coin.Until recently anything I got from USA was at 66% premium.The car has been a money pit,which is kinda OK, but I still like to shave it down if I can.
A friend had a sbc performance built, not alot of miles and he didn't pound it.I'm buying it cheap.He's always wheeling and dealing and this motor has just been sitting.specs 4 bolt block, forged crank, forged flat top 10:1 pistons,good rods,decked,462 64 cc heads gasket matched,it had a 290* 500'' cam which I don't want, dual valve springs with seat pocket cut into head.
All that math stuff you posted still has me a bit mind boggled, I think I've sniffed too much cat fur and I'm blocked. :o)
I see what you're talking about with cam and rear gear ratios, but I'm not able to pick what I need.I was thinking of a Lunati cam 60102,in part because of the CR(friend said he used reg gas tho),but now reading about break in on this cam and I'm worried.Any suggestion on a cam?Smaller Lunati?I'd like to keep my TH350 as it's fresh and I'd have to change my cross member and maybe floor for a 700R.
The car weighs about 2700lbs, what would be a good rear gear for mpg with this motor and tranny, now a 2:73 posi? I'd hate to change it only because I don't like gear oil, yuck. :o) Cisco
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Old 03-24-2008, 09:10 AM
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Cisco,
my conclusion:
you have got a REALLY REALLY bad case of CABIN FEVER!!!!

each post you add contradicts your previous posts for facts and priorities....

my best advice is leave the car and motor alone till you can get out doors and soak up some sunshine to clear your head!

you just layed down 30' of rubber with a fresh motor that is not even broken in or tuned and has close to best cam and CR for 87 octane mpg potential and burned 30' with a tall 2.73 posi!

yes, a 10/1 motor "can" survive and run on 87 octane.....as long as you are willing to give up a lot of power and a lot of mpg....by setting the timing to about 26- 30* WOT max timing (and likely almost no vac advance timing for mpg).....

the lunati cam (219/227) performance was designed and based on a 350 with 36-38* WOT timing (and ok to use about 10*'s+ additional of vac advance)...

just a guess... but the 10/1 motor with the 219/227 cam would be about 260HP max with only 30* WOT for 87 octane same as you have now (versus 340HP? with 36* and 94 octane and lunati cam)...your "buddy" is being less than honest or is ignorant telling you 87 octane is fine on a approx 200psi 10/1 combo

and the 10/1 motor will get worse mpg and crummy acceleration with only 30* of timing.....

a friendly suggestion:
Do some reading in the "Knowledge Base" link (excellent articles and threads) at the top of this page and the Hot Rodding basics forum till you better understand the fundamental "rules" for building a performance motor and drive train before ya get out your wallet

and this link is the most comprehensive library of learning and tech and how to's I know of....
click on a catagory on the left like...performance
click on each magazine...
click on the tech section

http://www.simautomotive.com/

(side note to all...just so ya know...somebody "gutted" the knowledge base for content...alot/most(?) of the best articles are gone....that's why I am adding the old primemedia link now to my posts)...

Last edited by red65mustang; 03-24-2008 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:44 PM
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'76 sbc build , need more head advice

Chill out RED, thought I soften you up man,
My motor is not fresh, it has 2 weak cylinders remember.
I did a frame off start to my car, blasted frame, new suspension, used motor with some mods.I thought motor would be better than it is.This year I can drive it for fun , but I can take it to shops if I need.Windows and paint can wait as I started with a running original car.
I always wanted a 383 for it ,thought it would just cruise easier.The motor from my friend cost me less than the pistons in it,so I'm going with it.If the CR is too much, that can be worked with, new heads or my other heads are 487s 76cc.I should have a good sb in to start as once I do paint it,I'm not taking it apart. Cisco
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:17 PM
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Cisco,
"CABIN FEVER" was my last ever attempt at a joke...

(or maybe/probably/likely I'm not comprehending what you are writing so this is my last post)

how much power are the 2 low psi cylinders costing you?
blink your eyes twice quickly....(= 2/10th's of one second)
that's about how much quicker max your car's ET slip would read at the strip if all the cylinders did test 150-160psi
all that a static cranking compression test tells you is a rough estimate of how many miles till a rebuild will be needed...

did you test the CR with a vac guage, in the garage and on the road? 25Hg versus 24Hg on a downshift= only 4% less power WOT = that's such a small loss you can't tell it at all driving with a 260HP motor

did you do a compression test on the 10/1 motor to know for sure that all cylinders do test equal and the rotating assembly is in good working order????
(so far that's your reason for buying it...)

comment:
if someone offered me a $3,000 full race motor for $500...I wouldn't pay him a dime till it was thoughly tested and inspected...especially on a 10/1 full race motor that was run on 87 octane!!! (it only takes one "kaboom" to ruin it)

"killer good deals" do happen (I've found one so far in my lifetime)

"if" the 10/1 motor does test good...sell it for $2500? and buy a 9/1 383 long block...that's what you keep saying you want....

ps: 383= 10% less mpg...it's 10% more cubes sucking 10% more gas into the cylinders at cruise

good luck to you,

Red
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:38 PM
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'76 sbc build , need more head advice

I'm very sorry Red ,just sounded snotty.
I've spent most of my free time for years either building or renovating my houses.I do really good work and without training.I now have arthritis and can't build the next one I wanted to.I also have a chronic fatique problem, so without something to keep me going ,I just sleep.I really need to build this car just to keep my sanity and keep me going.I like piddling with stuff.I don't know it all ,but I'm looking to learn.Three weeks ago I knew nothing about cylinder heads,but I'm willing to learn stuff I'm interested in.
Sorry ,but I don't know it all and that's why I ask for advise.Some times I also don't understand.
We had snow again and I haven't hooked up the vaccumn gauge to test yet. It's too friggin cold in the garage. Cisco
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Old 03-26-2008, 09:30 PM
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I know the feeling. I live 2 hours north of you in Bird's Creek... Snow banks are 15ft + here Im looking forward to the warmer temp this week tho. I dont have the luxury of a garage its just ply wood and cold ground for me . Anywho about the rebuild at $5000 either someone didnt like you or you wanted all the bells and whistles.. I have a 400 sbc and Auto Parts Extra quoted me at $2200 for there shop In Ottawa to rebuild it for me. If you didn't want mpg you could always call Mcadoo's In kingston and get a 454 out of a older 5 ton truck. Anyways good luck with your build and your putty cats

Ed
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Old 03-27-2008, 09:00 AM
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Cisco,
I just realized what a dumb sh## I have been (my friggin' brain doesn't work anymore either!)....I broke my own #1 rule!....."Assume nothing, check everything!"

I hadn't looked in your project pic's till just now!!!!....
that looks like a Victor Junior open plenum intake manifold....

that's a serious mis-match no-no to the rv cam...

that intake is designed for a motor that cruises at atleast 3,000 rpms to have enough Hg to make enough A/F velocity to make a decent "quality" "atomized" A/F mix for a good power fuel burn...

it designed for a motor that "operates" at 2500min-6500HP peak rpms with a "mega" cam and high CR (like the 10/1 motor)....

the rv cam is designed to work from 1500-4500HP peak and wants a very high velocity A/F mix at that rpm band from a small runners dual plane intake....

that open plenum intake is likely the (75%?) reason the motor has no balls and really crummy mpg...

there's not nearly enough A/F velocity with the open plenum intake to keep the gas in suspension till it gets into the combustion chamber....the gas is turning back to a liquid in the intake and liquid gas makes no power at all just dripping into the cylinders...

a stock 350 iron intake is actually the best choice for a rv cam... (nah, 20lbs+ more weight..I can't/won't do that on my car..)

sell the open plenum on ebay and buy a used performer 350 intake off Ebay...that will work fine and a whole lot better for "pep" and mpg and very likely chirp the tires!!!!...

with a open plenum and a rv cam I haven't a clue what the vac guage will read..... but basically 6Hg to 13Hg =crummy A/F mix quality=major power loss=not enough suction for the carb to make a good mix and velocity...(so all I can do is take a wild guess what you will see when you get to test with the vac guage):
your idle Hg should be 18-20...likely about 10-12
your 2k no load Hg should be about 20....likely about maybe 13-14
your 60mph cruise hg should be 18+...likely only maybe 12

the good news...very likely your tranny is plenty good as is....

it will be just a total waste of time to try to tune/adjust the vac advance timing with that open plenum intake for mpg and acceleration...but it is a kinda' fun "tinkering" project...and does teach you alot about what a motor is actually doing while you drive....

re: staying busy till warm weather?
remove and improve/refurbish the 100's of small parts (brackets/SS trim/knobs/tailight housings/whatever) that you can work on in the house...so many of those parts do take forever to do....prepped for paint, those parts will be fine stored for 3 months+ in the house

LOL...this thread would have been a whole lot shorter if I had been smart enough to look in your album before my first post...or if you had listed that intake as part of your motor description....
no balls with what should be a 340ft/lbs+ motor and only 2700 lbs just didn't make sense....only took "my brain" a week(?) to figure out why!...your motor is way down on TQ with that intake
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Old 03-27-2008, 06:22 PM
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'76 sbc build , need more head advice

I have a Performer intake and a 4 hole, 1'' 'torque swirl' spacer, supposed to add bottom end, but it keeps the air cleaner clear of distributor and rad hose, and helps fill the compartment up.I was thinking about taking it out and see if it makes any dif.I also have to put in the advance kit.The distributor is a ProForm Ebay thing I bought, because the cap alone here is more expensive than the whole distributor kit price and my GM distb diasappered.
1 5/8 shorty headers, 2'' exhaust.
thanks for info Red, just don't hit me with your purse. :o)
Hey 400, I asked around ,machining is 1300 to 1700,plus assembly,balancing plus parts will put it up.Think we'll ever get warm weather? When I took the dog out this morning I saw 2 geese flying south and I'm sure that honking was saying F* this.
Peace, out. .V.. Cisco

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Old 03-27-2008, 06:41 PM
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'76 sbc build , need more head advice

hey 400sb , where is Birds Creek? Do you go to any cruise nights in Ottawa? I'll hit the Orleans one sometime this year.
I do the cat shows in Ottawa too. All my cats are titled and I have one national winner,but showing all year is expensive and ssooo political.
Cisco

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Old 03-27-2008, 08:41 PM
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I dont go to any cruise nights other then the one in bancroft occasionally. I had a 1977 cutlass but I sold it because I didnt have enough time for 2 projects. I have a mud truck that im Constantly working on (go figure).

This week is suppose to be really nice in the single +'s but its suppose to be sunny and when the sun is out it feels more like the double digit +'s.

Heres a picture of it almost done its nothing specail just a toy that I wanted to build. (Couldnt afford a 7-10 grand ATV So I maid one )

Sorry bout the pic all cut off im new to figuring out pictures on here and the only way I can get it on here is if i cut it up oh well
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