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Old 06-24-2011, 01:31 PM
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9/16" and 1/2" fittings sealing trouble.

Hi
I have trouble making the 9/16 and fittings to seal properly against the master. If I torque them more Im afraid the threads will be destroyed. Is this a known problem? Im not using thread sealer.
The fittings are correct, but the theads felt very tight when I put them on. Not wrong, but tight.

The master cylinder is an aluminum universal Corvette type. I bought it from Pirate Jack's Hot Rod parts for app 130 $.

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Old 06-24-2011, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staleg
Hi
I have trouble making the 9/16 and fittings to seal properly against the master. If I torque them more Im afraid the threads will be destroyed. Is this a known problem? Im not using thread sealer.
The fittings are correct, but the theads felt very tight when I put them on. Not wrong, but tight.

The master cylinder is an aluminum universal Corvette type. I bought it from Pirate Jack's Hot Rod parts for app 130 $.
It's not the fittings that seal, it's the flare on the tube. Verify that the flares are formed correctly, not cracked, not dirty, and have no burrs. Similarly, carefully inspect the seats in the M/C ports. Thread sealer won't help, the seal is formed by the flare, not the threads.
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Old 06-24-2011, 04:02 PM
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As i said in the first post: The fittings don't seal properly against the master.
The brake hose flares and 3/16" fittings seals ok.
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Old 06-26-2011, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staleg
As i said in the first post: The fittings don't seal properly against the master.
The brake hose flares and 3/16" fittings seals ok.
Are you using threaded adapters between the master cylinder and the brake lines? Were they provided with the master cylinder, or are they common brass (or steel) adapter bushings?
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Old 06-26-2011, 01:34 AM
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Hi. They have a "flare" against the master, wich looks to be made for this purpose. But Pirate Jack's didn't have the flare, so I haven't bought the adapters and the master from the same store.

I took the chance on torquing them a little more and the problem seems to be cured.
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Old 06-26-2011, 07:37 AM
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Most of these Corvette style master cylinders use a straight tube fitting rather then a flare style. Mine isnt aluminum, but there is an adapter with a hollow bolt then there are a couple of brass seals, one on each side of that adapter.

This is mine:



These adapter fittings are called "banjo" fittings and bolts. Summit has them here

As a note, Pirate Jack has not had the stock nor the pricing for me - ever

And yep, I know, Norway!!!

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Old 06-26-2011, 08:29 AM
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Thanks for the input. I guess I have to look into that solution.
Problem wasn't cured after all... Still leaks a bit.

This is my second master cylinder. The first one was an iron one from Summit. They sent me another one than I ordered. I tried to fit it anyway, but it was for a disck/drum set up and I have disc/disc.
When I got it on, it leaked at the back were the push pin attach. I complained, but since I live in Norway, a return of it was out of question (too heavy), so they offered me a 25$ gift card to make up, and I accepted. The iron master cost 39 $.

I used the same type of fittings on the iron master that I have used now on the new one. But on the iron master they felt very loose in the threads. Correct threads, but on the loose side. I had to torque those fittings down very hard as well, but they sealed at last.
With the iron master I wasn't afraid of the threads. iron is harder than brass, and changing the fittings isn't such a big deal.

When I bought the aluminum master, I bought new fittings in case those first ones was woren after I torqued them so hard.
New fittings and new master. On the new master threads are very "hard". They don't feel wrong, but they are - new and unused maybe? Hard to screw. I tried the old fittings on the new master to find out what differed from the first one, and the old fittings also felt hard to screw. So it's the threads in the aluminum master that are very "hard"

I know what this probably look like: Wrong threads. But they are not. I'm sure.

If I torque the brass fittings too hard in the aluminum master, which threads will be destroyed? Aluminum or brass? Or both?
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Old 06-26-2011, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staleg
Thanks for the input. I guess I have to look into that solution.
Problem wasn't cured after all... Still leaks a bit.

This is my second master cylinder. The first one was an iron one from Summit. They sent me another one than I ordered. I tried to fit it anyway, but it was for a disck/drum set up and I have disc/disc.
When I got it on, it leaked at the back were the push pin attach. I complained, but since I live in Norway, a return of it was out of question (too heavy), so they offered me a 25$ gift card to make up, and I accepted. The iron master cost 39 $.

I used the same type of fittings on the iron master that I have used now on the new one. But on the iron master they felt very loose in the threads. Correct threads, but on the loose side. I had to torque those fittings down very hard as well, but they sealed at last.
With the iron master I wasn't afraid of the threads. iron is harder than brass, and changing the fittings isn't such a big deal.

When I bought the aluminum master, I bought new fittings in case those first ones was woren after I torqued them so hard.
New fittings and new master. On the new master threads are very "hard". They don't feel wrong, but they are - new and unused maybe? Hard to screw. I tried the old fittings on the new master to find out what differed from the first one, and the old fittings also felt hard to screw. So it's the threads in the aluminum master that are very "hard"

I know what this probably look like: Wrong threads. But they are not. I'm sure.

If I torque the brass fittings too hard in the aluminum master, which threads will be destroyed? Aluminum or brass? Or both?

It sounds like you still have the old iron version - and if so, why not try to rebuild it with some new O rings. I know Norway is metric, but there should be a hydraulic shop some where that has non-metric (SAE) materials. You don't say where you are, but my company built several oil platforms there, Statfjord B and C , at Stavanger and had to source inch sized materials locally occasionally. It might just take some time to find those parts.

As far as which material will be destroyed, the aluminum MC

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Old 06-26-2011, 10:15 AM
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I will use the aluminum master.
A Norweigian hot rod fellow of me uses 1/2" and 9/16" inverted flare fittings for 3/16" pipe.
These fittings are not easy to find, but this solution makes for the least amount of possible leaks. One fitting in each port and that's it.
That kind of fittings are in a fitting assortement from Summit. Don't know if it's possible to purchase them single or in pairs.

The banjo solution also looks nice, but since I have made my brake system with 45 degree inverted flares, I would have to use AN to IFF adapters on the banjos and then we are back with double fittings again, like now.

I have sent a mail to Pirate Jack's and told them about my problem and the tight threads on the aluminum M/C.
Maybe the threads are tighter on the aluminum master because it is aluminum, will stand high torques better then loose threads?

What a mess this stupid little problem has become. The car is filled with brake fluid and all. I thought the way I have done it was the usual way: Adapters plus IFF fittings? Probalby not, I guess...
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:10 PM
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Could you be mixing metric and SAE parts? You've mentioned threads being "tight" and "loose" -- straight threads, as used on brake lines, should be close fitting, but not tight or loose.

Are you using tapered-thread adapters between the lines and the master cylinder? If so, then that's the problem.

Can you post a photo showing your fittings and adapters?
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Old 06-27-2011, 12:26 AM
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Hi
The master and fittings are on the car, filled with fluid. I don't have plugs, so I won't remove them before I have an alternative ready. The master is 90 degrees transverse pointing to the right below the dash with the fittings pointing forward, so a photo of the fittings in place are not telling much (very limited space).

But both sets of fittings and both masters is bought directly from USA. Both fitting sets are acting the same: loose threads on the leaky iron master and tight threads on the new aluminum master.
But none of the threads "feels" wrong. The rather loose threads on the iron master was tight enough to stand pretty high torque without destroying the brass adapter threads. I guess that would be different if the threads were wrong.
And about the aluminum master: What if the threads are stainless, sleaved into the aluminum? Some of Speedway Motors identical masters are sleeved that way. From earlier i know that sleeved theads often ends up tighter that "normal".

I have ordered new fittings from Summit today. Fittings for 3/16 double flare pipe, but with 1/2" and 9/16" outer threads instead of the usual 3/8"-24 threads.
I didn't know such fittings were available at all. I would say this must be the perfect solution? No adapters and double flare against the master as originally intended.

Let's hope I haven't overtorqued and destroyed the threads in my new 140$ master cylinder...

Thank you very much for all your help and inpits so far. You are indeed a buch of good fellows!

I will post an update later.
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Old 07-08-2011, 07:59 AM
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The new fittings made the difference.
They have the correct 9/16 and 1/2" male threads, but their inner diameter is made to fit the usual 3/16" brake pipe.
A nice and clean setup and no need for the adapters fittings.
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Old 07-09-2011, 12:13 PM
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Excellent news. Thanks for keeping us updated.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:29 PM
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I know this is an old thread, but in this case one more update is correct.
The new fittings leaked, too.

As a third option I decided to try the banjo fitting, at the seems to seal good.


I think maybe the original GM brake pipes is part of my problem?

The cones inside the master are made to fit against the rather large diameter brake pipes that GM used between the master and the proportion valve.
When I fit the 3/16" pipe against that big cone, the thin pipe simply wasn't big enough to reach around and over the cone, even with the correct 45 degree double flare and correct threads on the fittings.

Just my suggestion, and something to consider for other builders that have problems like this...
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