[MARTINSR]

This has been hashed over on the forum I am sure but I just had to ask.

A few days ago at work we had a VERY heated discussion about this subject with a few people who I never would have guessed would be so vocal got VERY hot about it. The passions were flowing big time with so many "facts" to support their sides.

There have been tons of books on the subject, movies, we all have seen something one time or another in the past 6 years, any thoughts?

Brian

[machine shop tom]

Those that propagate the 9-11 "theories' that the gubmint or others brought the towers, etc. down by nefarious means have been so thoroughly debunked I can't believe they are still at it. But then again, when money and notoriety are to be gained, why should facts get in the way?

tom

[mosstrooper]

I don't know much about any theories regarding 911, but I do think there is a large grain of truth in some Conspiracy Theories.

In May 1988, An American Warship shot down an Iranian Airbus 300 passenger plane containing almost 300 people, which they said was mistaken for a F14 Fighter jet. It took 4 years for the US Administration to admit that USS Vincennes was in Iranian Waters.

Meanwhile, six months later a Pan Am Airliner was blown up over Scotland and came down 40 miles from me at Lockerbie. The US Government knew a Pan Am flight was about to be attacked, they warned US Government officials not to fly Pan Am until further notice, but did not tell the public.

The blame for this was put on Libya, a man was put on trial and jailed here in Scotland. His second appeal is due shortly and all the evidence shows neither he or Libya were involved.

It was said at the time that the Pan Am attack was allowed to go ahead to even the score, and prevent a worse situation with Iran, and a case was built against Libya to deflect blame from Iran.

The US government has never admitted responsibility or apologised for the tragedy.

Some believe the Lockerbie bombing, carried out six months later in December 1988, was masterminded by Iranians in revenge for the Airbus tragedy, although a Libyan man was convicted and jailed in 2001.

In February 1996 the US agreed to pay Iran $61.8 million in compensation for the 248 Iranians killed, plus the cost of the aircraft and legal expenses.

It had already paid a further $40 million to the other countries whose nationals were killed.

[Job~Rated]

Originally Posted by machine shop tom

why should facts get in the way?

I'm curious about this statement, Tom. What 'facts' do we have?

I watched a program where a TV crew was filming a fire crew on 9/11 & this fire crew were virtually the first to arrive at the scene.
The foyer of the tower they entered was clear - by that I mean there was no blood or bodies anywhere & little or no fire damage. The explosion would have forced a fireball down the elevator shaft, wouldn't it? Had someone else got there first & cleaned up?

I also saw another clip of film (which I still have on my PC) taken of the second jet crashing into the second tower.
It is clearly evident from this clip that the outward explosion on whatever floor it was, happened milliseconds before the jet made contact. In other words, a controlled explosion.

I will admit that with today's technology, any piece of film can be doctored to suit one's point of view, but on the other hand, the theorists have certainly raised enough doubt in people's minds for there to be questions raised. Typically, this thread.

Let's look back to the sixties & ask ourselves why we still don't know for sure who assassinated JFK....

[poncho62]

Conspiracy or not?...I don't know.......

I always thought it real strange how straight down those 2 buildings fell, instead of toppling over. Kind of like how those demolition experts do it.

And, does anyone personally know anyone that were on those 2 planes? The only people that I have heard any names of were on the one that crashed in Pennsylvania.

[machine shop tom]

I one wants to investigate the conspiracy claims, there are some good websites to learn from:

http://www.debunking911.com/

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...w/1227842.html

There are more.

I'll try to address some specifics later tonite.

tom

[anthonyc1]

A friend of a friend of mine had a niece that was on the plane going to CA. It was in the local paper as well. The crazy thing is the girl worked in one of the towers and was on vacation going to CA from Boston. When its your time its your time, thats it. I dont believe it was as cut and dry as its made out to be, that all that could be done with a box cutter. Also why is there never any pics of plane debris near the pintagon?

[Kim57]

I always thought it real strange how straight down those 2 buildings fell, instead of toppling over. Kind of like how those demolition experts do it.

The upper floors fell onto the floors below them. If it had been taken down by demolition from the bottom they would have fallen over.

Also why is there never any pics of plane debris near the Pentagon?

My brother is a fireman who went to the airliner that crashed in Cerritos Ca. years ago. He said there is so much velocity of a plane going in that there is very little left of them. Don't forget the pentagon is built very with tons of re-enforcement and the plane is mostly aluminum.
I don't put any credence in the conspiracy theories.
Kim

[speede5]

I for one do not believe anything other than the airplanes brought down the towers. The logistics involved in demolishing those buildings to go along with the terrorists timing is unfathomable. The only conspiracy I could believe at all is that the government knew something was coming and let it happen to allow them to go to war. Unfortunatly for the public there is so much information that is being kept secret it gives all the conspirists a reason to get everyone riled up. Let the people who died RIP.

[bluebu]

Why? Why would our government do such a thing? Where's the motive? I've yet to hear any theories that hold water. It would take an awful lot of incentive, IMHO.

So, you doubt that there were passengers on the planes do you also doubt that there were people in the towers? If they weren't killed on the planes or in the towers where are they? Is the government hiding all those people somewhere or did they all just never really exist? If W was behind it he must be WAY smarter than any of us give him credit for, right? I mean a man would have to be a freaking genius to pull a massive plot like that together in the short time he had between being elected and 9/11!

I'm sorry but I just can't for the life of me understand why anyone would buy into this conspiracy stuff. I'm all for questioning and examining what our government does and why they do it but this is just taking things to far.

Life is strange. It doesn't always make sense and if you look closely at ANY complicated situation you can find things that just don't appear to add up but that certainly doesn't mean that there was some sort of conspiracy behind it.

This theory holds about as much weight as the one about the entire LA police department and the crime lab conspiring to frame OJ!

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by anthonyc1

A friend of a friend of mine had a niece that was on the plane going to CA. It was in the local paper as well. The crazy thing is the girl worked in one of the towers and was on vacation going to CA from Boston. When its your time its your time, thats it. I dont believe it was as cut and dry as its made out to be, that all that could be done with a box cutter. Also why is there never any pics of plane debris near the pintagon?

You mean like this?

Brian



And for the box cutter, HUH? A box cutter has a one inch razor blade. Can you imagine what that looks like running across someone neck?

[machine shop tom]

This page:

ttp://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/

addresses point-by-point many of the things that are brought up by conspiracy theorists (CTs). It's worth a look and also it's worth checking into the links.

tom

[strummin67]

Why would our government do such a thing?

To quote Bob Dylan: We're just pawns in their game.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by Kim57

The upper floors fell onto the floors below them. If it had been taken down by demolition from the bottom they would have fallen over.

My brother is a fireman who went to the airliner that crashed in Cerritos Ca. years ago. He said there is so much velocity of a plane going in that there is very little left of them. Don't forget the pentagon is built very with tons of re-enforcement and the plane is mostly aluminum.
I don't put any credence in the conspiracy theories.
Kim

In this heated argument at work I was FASCINATED at what I was hearing. Especially from the VERY intellegent and respected people who were saying it.

Things like the demolition team bringing the buildings down. Has anyone ever watched one of those shows where they do that? It would take HUNDREDS of exposives with THOSANDS of feet of wire and HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of hours of prep, how could you pull off such a thing?

This myth was started by peoples comments of people at the time on the seen saying things like "OH MY GOD, IT LOOKED LIKE ONE OF THOSE CONTOLED DEMOLITIONS" Or "IT SOUNDED LIKE BOMBS GOING OFF". How many of you have ever heard a bomb? How many of the average person has even heard a gun shot in person? That guy at the mall the day before yesterday? I heard first account witnesses saying "I didn't think it was a gun because it wasn't loud and they were too fast". So, I guess by the conspiracy theorist there were no guns at that mall! The EVIDENCE of guns must be wrong, that witness said so!

Most of us have only the movies to judge what a gun or bomb sounds like, we have no clue. The sound effect specialists literally use the sound of a cannon for a gun and will mix multiple explosion recordings slowing them down for explosions.

How about the metal beams melting, they say it can't get hot enough. Well, DUH, not to melt it into a pool, but to weaken it and make it bend and twist. Hell, I saw with my own eyes 10" (or so, I don't know for sure) "I BEAMS" that were holding the roof up in my school when it was burnt bend down like friggin taffy.

One of the things I said to this person when she said "Our government did it" I looked her right in the eye and said "BILL CLINTON did it????? Because it was on his watch that the FBI didn't pursue the reports that the highjackers were not interested in landing they planes they were learing to fly.

I couldn't believe my ears. Now, I didn't know much about details of this attack so they were beating me up with all kinds of "facts" about how other crashes (no where nears the same as the ones that day) yielded different results. How there was no debris, how the planes had no windows, how there as a "pod" under one of them, how there were explosions in the buildings lobbies before they came down. I spent thirty minutes studying it to find that all these "facts" were simply not true and not "facts" at all! But they had watched the cartoon movie by Michael Moore and knew it all.

So, check this out, one of these people walked out of the room then hung her head back in to ask my opinion about HMOs (). You see, she had now watched "Sicko" (another Michael Moore Masterpiece I believe). Which is of course about socialized medicine. In one part they explain how Cuba has a better health system than we do.

So I said to her, "Let me get this straight, you want a government who would conspire 911 to run our health care?"



I don't get it, simple science guys, it is all simple science. Leave all the emotions at the door and look at it like a science project and it is all pretty easy to believe that 19 Muslim extremest flew four planes into buildings and the ground killing everyone on board and many on the ground. It really isn't that hard to figure out.

Brian

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by machine shop tom

This page:

ttp://www.lolinfowars.co.nr/

addresses point-by-point many of the things that are brought up by conspiracy theorists (CTs). It's worth a look and also it's worth checking into the links.

tom

In doing my "research" on the subject I came across a site with some guy going on and on about this and that stupid crap theorys. At the bottom of the page was the guys bio. He had investegated "ancient mystries" and been a background designer on the Simpsons show for the past five years! NO KIDDING, this was a dead serious piece written by a guy who has worked on a cartoon show!

Brian