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Old 07-28-2012, 02:29 AM
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98 Ford Windstar 3.8 running rich after kicking back while cranking?

It didn't backfire. I just didn't hold the key in start position long enough when cranking before the engine started, and the engine turned backwards momentarily. This isn't the first time I've done this since it usually starts up within a second or so (like on the first revolution of the crankshaft) and I've got into a habit of only holding the key in start position for that amount of time. When I released the key from start postion the motor turned backwards enough for me to hear air being pushed back out of the intake tract. As I said, this is not the first time I've done this when cranking it. But this time, after I did start it correctly, the motor is running really rich, and at idle it's blowing black smoke and surging. After it's up to speed on the road it does fine but then it acts like the throttle is sticking open when coming to a stop. Did I bend a sensor door or something involving the MAF sensor or what?
No check engine light yet.

As always thanks for any help!!!
Mike

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Old 07-28-2012, 07:06 AM
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backwords turn.

You can mess up carb throttles with a backfire , also rolling backwards in a foreward gear can make some timing belts slip. but that will run bad at all rpm. You could have blown some crud back on a sensor.
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Old 07-28-2012, 07:14 AM
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Running rich without a MIL (Maitnenace Indicator Light) or check engine light is most likeley unmetered fuel entering the combustion chamber
It can be through a leaky fuel pressure regulator
It can be to high fuel pressure
It can be injectors leaking
I have a hunch that is fowling plugs causing a missfire, making the engine counter rotate during starting.
If those mechanical issues check out, you will need to hook up a scanner and check some live data to see if all the parameters are within specifications.
Otherwise...all of the sensors are reading a value that makes sense for the engines oprating condition, you know, like coolant temp after running a half hour should be 185 degrees, not -40 stuff like that. It may have a defective component causing the issue, but if it is not shorted or open, and it is within parameters, it may not set a code, and could run poorly.
PCM s can be defective and not set codes also, but lets not go there, at least not now, Good luck testing.
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Old 07-28-2012, 03:19 PM
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I found the problem this morning when I had more light;
The rubber grommet connecting the PCV valve supply line (approx 8mm ID) to the intake plentum had been forced off by the engine turning backwards and this created a massive vaccum leak. I put it back on and it's running just fine again. I suppose the rich running condition was due to the PCM adding extra fuel to compensate for all the extra 'post throttle body' air being introduced into the system.
I didn't see this last night because it was too dark. I wish all my problems were this easy to solve.
I started to clamp the grommet onto the nipple but decided to leave it as is since this may serve as a safety as to not damage any other components if this happens again.
Thank you both for your help!!!
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Old 07-28-2012, 03:55 PM
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I know the fitting you are talking about. You can actually by that at advanced auto parts, at least they sell them at the one near my house.They are 7 or 8 bucks. A clamp will work for a while, I have seen them cave in and get a hole sucked right throughthem.
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Old 07-29-2012, 10:30 PM
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Ok, I don't have an Advanced near me but I'll be going close to one Friday so I'll get one. I see why it can cave in. Mine is really soft, from age and heat I suppose.
Thanks again.
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:35 PM
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There is a TSB on these for the front valve cover not having appropriate baffling to prevent oil from being drawn up the pcv.the oil swells the pcv grommets, and the are prone to pushing of with only the slightest help, be it a bit of reverse rotation, vibration, or whatever.
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:53 PM
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First of all Mike ... I like your avatar
(Might not be an objective opinion, though)

Secondly ... I am not a technician by trade, and really have no clue whether or not this part has anything to do with your issues. It's just a bad memory from my days as a Ford partsman back in 2006.

We had a Windstar 3.8 that pretty much LIVED in our shop, with starting and driveability problems. The owner had a LOT of patience, and just kept bringing it back time and time again. He would leave it overnight so that we could do cold starts, etc, and to see if it would set a code or not.

I believe they finally tracked the problem down to the Intake Manifold Vacuum Control Valves (one on each side)

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Old 08-02-2012, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbchevfreak View Post
There is a TSB on these for the front valve cover not having appropriate baffling to prevent oil from being drawn up the pcv.the oil swells the pcv grommets, and the are prone to pushing of with only the slightest help, be it a bit of reverse rotation, vibration, or whatever.
On my engine there is a breather line from the front valve cover that feeds into the intake ducting just after the air filter housing 'prior' to the throttle body. (limited vaccum area). I've had problems with an oil contaminated air filter and this breather line may be responsible for that. But the PCV line that blew off feeds to the intake tract 'post throttle body' from the rear valve cover. I have not had any excessive oil consumption problems but it doesn't take much oil to degrade the rubber over time so I believe your on the right track in that oil is what made this grommet degrade.
I looked over the TSB's that I could Google but don't see the one for the "valve cover not having appropriate baffling", but I'll keep looking for a retrofit because air filters are expensive if they keep getting contaminated by motor oil.

Thanks for your help sbchevfreak!
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66GMC View Post
First of all Mike ... I like your avatar
(Might not be an objective opinion, though)
Yes, our dog is awesome, and I don't remember where I got it but it may have been from yourself. If so I hope you don't mind me using it for the last few years on here and a couple of more forums too.

Quote:
I believe they finally tracked the problem down to the Intake Manifold Vacuum Control Valves (one on each side)
Hopefully I'll get time to work on it tommorrow and I'll look for those control valves and test them.

Thanks for the help... and don't forget to feed the dog in the seat!
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Old 08-02-2012, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike 96 ws6 View Post
Yes, our dog is awesome, and I don't remember where I got it but it may have been from yourself. If so I hope you don't mind me using it for the last few years on here and a couple of more forums too.
If if was borrowed from me, I don't mind at all.
I had originally found it in an e-mail that was entitled "You know when you're driving too fast when ..."

I laughed and thought "Yup, that is going to be my avatar on Hotrodders!"
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66GMC View Post
If if was borrowed from me, I don't mind at all.
Thanks!

Quote:
I had originally found it in an e-mail that was entitled "You know when you're driving too fast when ...
That's very appropriate LOL.
I have it entitled "old dog learning new tricks" on another site where I use it.

Have a nice day 66GMC!!!
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Old 08-04-2012, 05:10 AM
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Mike 96 is on to something. I do remember a TSB for an upgraded valve cover designe for the 3.8 and IIRC it was applicable for your year /model. There is a simple way to ID if the upgrade has been done. It involves looking into the oil fill and checking for a small hole in the baffle. The posistion of the hole in the baffle is indicative of whether or not the upgrade has been performed. The upgrade valve cover had the hole stamped in a different spot, making it easy to ID.
I dont remember the intimate details about the hole posistion or the exact reason for the upgrade , but I believe it was for oil control.
Alldata will have the TSB , and the blue oval store will have information on it too. Just sayin.
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Old 08-05-2012, 02:57 PM
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http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...orFZNQ&cad=rja

This is the TSB I was referring to, #03-16-1. This may not be your exact symptoms, but the V/C can and will cause the PCV and fuel pressure regulator connections to swell, changed tons of these for that issue. Also, the bolts/grommets on the interior of the intake can leak vacuum, causing a whole 'nother set of headaches.
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