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  #106 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2005, 10:10 AM
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Acrylic vs bc/cc

I have been reading this thread for a while now and decided to add my 2cents.
What paint do you think is on commercial aircraft? BC/CC ? Don't think so.. could you imagine over 1000 pounds of paint delaminating (nice word for pealing off) at 200+ mph ? These airplanes were painted with AE with hardner. I believe they can now use the urethane enamels with hardener. Correct me if you have seen a BC/CC that has been certified by the FAA, I haven't.
These aircraft are usually cleaned in the middle of snow storms with deicing solvent. Would like to see the BC/CC after a washing with this solvent.
If you are going to add a metalic paint to the vehicle it may be worth looking into bc/cc because you can't sand down/repair a single stage with metal flake. I hear you can compound it, however I have never been successful doing it. If anyone knows how to do this please let me know.
Now for a few questions:
1. Have you ever heard of a single stage delaminating ?
2. Why pay upwards of $700 for bc/cc for materials when you can get the single stage enamel for $150. Your friend wants more for the bc/cc maybe it is because of the paint price difference.
3.Who said the cc is better than the single ? Now a days they are the same they are both urethane enamels (right?). The difference is one has pigment the other doesn't.
4. How good can a hardened clear coat be if it rests on top of a non-hardened (soft) base coat ? Isn't this the same as putting paint on top of a non-hardened bondo ?
4. Ever hear of someone say .. "if you mess up just fix it and go on". This is BS. I have a Mustang that I am painting bc/cc yellow. Top dollar ppg paint new gun etc etc etc. There was an imperfection on the rear quarter that I fixed, reapplied base coat and the perimeter of the repair is wrinkling/pealing.
Tried two different types of primer... bondo... enamel paint and now the 24 hours has expired and the wrinkling hasn't stopped. Have to do it all over.
5. Interesting thing is I painted this car in '77 with AE + hardner. I washed it at one time with gasoline and it actually got shinier. Now so many years later I am trying to remove it with a DA + 80grit and having a hell of a time.
5. Know anyone that wants to buy a bunch of ppg bc/cc paint ?

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  #107 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2005, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onlythegood
5. Know anyone that wants to buy a bunch of ppg bc/cc paint ?
What do you have?
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2005, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onlythegood
I have been reading this thread for a while now and decided to add my 2cents.
What paint do you think is on commercial aircraft? BC/CC ? Don't think so.. could you imagine over 1000 pounds of paint delaminating (nice word for pealing off) at 200+ mph ? These airplanes were painted with AE with hardner. I believe they can now use the urethane enamels with hardener. Correct me if you have seen a BC/CC that has been certified by the FAA, I haven't.
These aircraft are usually cleaned in the middle of snow storms with deicing solvent. Would like to see the BC/CC after a washing with this solvent.
If you are going to add a metalic paint to the vehicle it may be worth looking into bc/cc because you can't sand down/repair a single stage with metal flake. I hear you can compound it, however I have never been successful doing it. If anyone knows how to do this please let me know.
Now for a few questions:
1. Have you ever heard of a single stage delaminating ?
2. Why pay upwards of $700 for bc/cc for materials when you can get the single stage enamel for $150. Your friend wants more for the bc/cc maybe it is because of the paint price difference.
3.Who said the cc is better than the single ? Now a days they are the same they are both urethane enamels (right?). The difference is one has pigment the other doesn't.
4. How good can a hardened clear coat be if it rests on top of a non-hardened (soft) base coat ? Isn't this the same as putting paint on top of a non-hardened bondo ?
4. Ever hear of someone say .. "if you mess up just fix it and go on". This is BS. I have a Mustang that I am painting bc/cc yellow. Top dollar ppg paint new gun etc etc etc. There was an imperfection on the rear quarter that I fixed, reapplied base coat and the perimeter of the repair is wrinkling/pealing.
Tried two different types of primer... bondo... enamel paint and now the 24 hours has expired and the wrinkling hasn't stopped. Have to do it all over.
5. Interesting thing is I painted this car in '77 with AE + hardner. I washed it at one time with gasoline and it actually got shinier. Now so many years later I am trying to remove it with a DA + 80grit and having a hell of a time.
5. Know anyone that wants to buy a bunch of ppg bc/cc paint ?
excellent excellent
this door got back opened "3.Who said the cc is better than the single ? Now a days they are the same they are both urethane enamels (right?). The difference is one has pigment the other doesn't." and I'm with you, it's easy to put on paper abot "special UV blockers and on and on , but years after the these super clears fail (though even I use clear cause it's easy to get em out the door).,,, we're still sanding and buffing a good quality single stage paint to a shine, and we are putting some elbow grease and time into it not just talk.

Last edited by milo; 11-06-2005 at 06:25 PM.
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2005, 06:51 PM
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i think you guys are correct on alot of the points but both bc/cc and single stage have their advantages and disadvantages. single stages are more durable when it comes to something that takes abuse like a plane or boat. i have done alot of painting on boats and i can tell you that a single stage will stay stuck on an outdrive longer than a bc/cc will for sure. the basecoat is a definate weak link in the system. however over the years it wont stay looking as good as a cc job. the colors will fade less and it will retain more gloss. its easier to do repairs with bc/cc. blends become much easier and some of the artwork type stuff i do would be impossible without clearcoat. personally i think the advantages of a bc/cc system completely out weigh those of a single stage but to each his own i guess. those of you that have good luck with ss and your customers dont mind by all means keep on sprayin!!
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  #110 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2005, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onlythegood
4. Ever hear of someone say .. "if you mess up just fix it and go on". This is BS. I have a Mustang that I am painting bc/cc yellow. Top dollar ppg paint new gun etc etc etc. There was an imperfection on the rear quarter that I fixed, reapplied base coat and the perimeter of the repair is wrinkling/pealing.
Tried two different types of primer... bondo... enamel paint and now the 24 hours has expired and the wrinkling hasn't stopped. Have to do it all over.
5. Interesting thing is I painted this car in '77 with AE + hardner. I washed it at one time with gasoline and it actually got shinier. Now so many years later I am trying to remove it with a DA + 80grit and having a hell of a time.
5. Know anyone that wants to buy a bunch of ppg bc/cc paint ?
Sorry, but if you're putting the BC/CC over that old enamel job that is where your problem is, not the BC/CC. If you've ever tried to spray laquer over enamel you'd notice the same problems.
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  #111 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2005, 07:21 PM
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Change People... change, it is what your grandparents and their grandparents were afraid of, and for allot of painters it is the same.. They found something that worked, why change.. Who says its better?? [B]Most of the guys on these forums are not painting commercial aircraft or boats... Most are either shops, or hobbyist... You use clear in your shop.... Nuff said[/B]
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  #112 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2005, 07:32 PM
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re: Acrylic Enamel vs. Base Coat Clear Coat

Guess it is old school and new school after all. Wish it was as simple as bc over enamel. This is a new panel that had epoxy primer and a base coat on it. To fix the original problem, I sanded down to bare metal (so I could clean up a weld), primed with etching primer and base coated again. The perimeter of the fix wrinkles and peals off. Then I sanded to bare metal again and added a direct-to-metal primer and the bc still wrinkles and peals off.. again only where original bc meets the fix. Even tried painting the area with enamel and the problem returns.
The parts of the car where I painted over old enamel are picture perfect.
Sorry about getting off topic in this thread I realize there is probably a more appropriate place for this conversation.
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  #113 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2005, 07:45 PM
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OTG shoulda used epoxy instead of etch
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2005, 05:00 AM
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AE vs BC/CC

I have been using a primer I believe is called direct-to-metal that has a catalyst. Not sure if it is an epoxy or not. It wrinkled the entire area when I applied it. I believe it is a Dupont product .. I'll check it again. Thanks for the input.
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Old 11-07-2005, 05:57 AM
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OTG, you're having some compatibility problems. That self etch primer is forever soluable and if you're getting layering of soluable products under and over catalyzed products it makes repairability a little hairy if you don't know how each product works. If you do a detailed description of what was done from the start I'm sure we here can point you in the right direction and also identify what went wrong. Repairing BC/CC is as easy as pie once you understand how all the products work. Some catalyzed products wrinkle when subjected to long term solvent contact, soluable products will wick the solvents in under the edges of these catalyzed products holding them and wrinkling the catalyzed product. Cars get repaired every day. Bob
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2005, 06:02 AM
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I painted my boat with a single stage, glad I did, it's holding up great.
I painted my car with base coat/ clear coat, glad I did.
There's different choices for different applications.
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Old 11-07-2005, 08:36 PM
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AE vs BC/CC .. now how to fix that BC

Want to let you know I really appreciate the help. The panel I am having problems with is a Taiwan tin replacement piece. This is what I used on it.
1. Valspar DTM (direct-to-metal) 2K primer + urethane reducer + activator
2. Deltron 2000 base coat with DT885 reducer.
Sanded a spot down to bare metal.
3. Applied DTM (step 1) to spot. Blistered immediately.
Sanded spot + blisters to bare metal
4. Applied SEM etching primer from a can. Went on fine.
5.Applied BC (step2) Blistered around perimeter of fix.
Sanded spot ++ to bare metal
6. Applied body filler to entire area and smoothed it out.
7 Applied DTM (step1). Blistered around perimeter.
Sanded spot +++ to bare metal
8. Applied Enamel from a can to area. Went on ok.
9. Applied DTM (step1). Blistered around perimeter.
Sanded spot +++ (now the size of a basketball) to bare metal.

A person i work with suggested covering the area with straight or very dry Base coat and follow up with a reduced coat. This dry coat is on there and it looks good. Not sure what the reduced bc will do to it....
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  #118 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2005, 08:59 PM
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Did the taiwan piece come with primer on it? Did you apply the DTM over this primer? The second application of DTM on your repair area should not have wrinkled unless there was a soluable product under your basecoat. DTM isn't soluable so I'm guessing it's the primer that was on the part. If there wasn't any other primer used and your first application of DTM was on bare steel with your basecoat applied over it then it's definately a compatibility problem between the Valspar DTM and the Deltron Base. The only products in your list that can wrinkle are the DTM and the spraycan enamel which was removed...and possibly the unknown taiwan primer if there is any.
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  #119 (permalink)  
Old 11-08-2005, 10:07 AM
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re: Acrylic Enamel vs. Base Coat Clear Coat

I want to thank everyone for the feedback. PPG got back to me about this and they too think it is an issue with the DTM. They suggested that I apply DX1791 etch on the bare metal and DPLF epoxy over the area overlapping the repair by a few inches with a minimum of 2.0 mils of film. This will "protect the sensitive sanded-through edge". Then apply the base coat over that. Another possibility they mentioned is the DTM wasn't fully cured so it was reacting all the time. I would have thought 1hr dry time at about 75degrees would have been enough. It is a possibility I guess. The cheap Taiwan primer was pretty much gone .. it washes off with reducer pretty easily, so this wasn't in play. I am going to mess with it later and I'll let you know how it works out. Thanks again
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  #120 (permalink)  
Old 11-09-2005, 08:54 PM
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paint

sounds like hes a old school backyard bodyman,,,baseclear is the only way 2 go!!!!!!
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