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Old 03-24-2013, 06:54 AM
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Activating enamel - long read ....

I know and expect any responses like "read the tech sheets" or "don't take chances". Please don't respond unless you have technical insight or experience. I work for a Caterpillar dealer and have a friend in the paint shop who's been managing/spraying for years ... this particular dealer has about 15 branches and been around for years. I was asking about the durability of the CAT (Valspar) enamels as they use some of the blacks on equipment and I was considering a gallon of semi flat for chassis. He said they use it .... but add activator and an accelerant and it sets up good and hard. He gave me the Valspar activator # and said it was an "inside the industry" thing that isn't published. The cans appear to be regular enamels, not poly as far as I know, and specs/directions mention nothing about activation, only reduction with thinner to spray. I emailed Valspar and they responded "we cannot recommend this procedure" , that was it. Any insight here ? It would be a great economical chassis paint for me (or rat rod flat option) if this method is doable. I'm not disrespecting the guys at the shop as it apparently works for them, and has for years, just questioning the chemistry and/or why Valspar wouldn't mention the option of activation (unless they prefer you to buy the more expensive polyurethane product with activator and it's actually the same stuff ?)

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Old 03-24-2013, 07:46 AM
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I don't know this product at all so I won't say a thing about what he is saying for sure being that really is a wide open question with no answer unless you work for Valspar or it's parent company and REALLY know what we are talking about here.

But on the subject of "inside the industry" kinda stuff yes there are many times the marketing dept says what is on the tech sheet in this type of thing. Yep, not the R&D dept but the marketing dept. They say this simply because they don't want to blur the line between the high end and the low end products. They are selling a high end product for a lot more money, that product uses the hardener of course to make it the high end product. They then make the low end product to fill that market and it doesn't use a hardener because it's a cheapie product, even though it may be the very same, even exact same product as the high end but with a different label on the can! No kidding, this happens, the thing is it is often kept very hush hush and even the paint reps and such don't know this, they cant' be letting this info out or people will just be buying the low end product and the sales of the high end where all the gross profit is tanks.
I had a tech rep tell me once when I was a paint rep and asked about flattening a low end value line and I will never forget his words "The R&D dept doesn't have a problem with that, but the marketing dept does". DING DING DING, the bells went off in my head, I had never caught on to that, lots of times this is exactly what it is.

However, and this is a BIG HOWEVER. knowing this for sure with the product you are talking about is why I will always suggest FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS and you can't go wrong.

Sorry no answer, but I did give you some "technical inside and experience". Tell me, you have seen this done there at your dealership for some time? Do you see the tractors that this was method was used on down the road with a little age on them? How do they look?

On the same note, how much is it saving you? Is it enough for the gamble?

No one is going to give you much of an answer unless you have all the part numbers so post them and see what happens. Maybe someone here really knows that product.

Brian
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:07 AM
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It is one of two enamels and both have a hardener and you need to use the right hardener with each one, so until you know what it is, noting we can be advised.
Most likely the same stuff you get at trailer supply for $10-20 a gallon.

Where I'm beyond confused, is why in Sams h's acre would you go to the trouble of getting a frame ready and use this type stuff on it.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:36 AM
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I have used TSC tractor paint for the last thirty years.. A paint that has been produced by at least three different manufacturers. One of them was Valspar.
These are synthetic enamels . I use them for chassis and floor/underbody surfaces. Always with the hardener. Without it the drying time is measured in days.
The product is easy to spray, durable and does a great job on frames. The red colors tend to fade to brown in the sun. As I have painted several tractors with it also.

The only real problem that I've had with the material was when I was using a different hardner. I bought some Limco hardener that seemed to work great with fantastic gloss but tended to chip . Went back to original hardener.

Presently using Allis Chalmers orange and John Deere blitz black on the underside and inside of fender panels of my Stude gasser. The color is compatible with the Hugger orange "good" paint used on the visable surfaces.
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Old 03-24-2013, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK View Post
It is one of two enamels and both have a hardener and you need to use the right hardener with each one, so until you know what it is, noting we can be advised.
Most likely the same stuff you get at trailer supply for $10-20 a gallon.

Where I'm beyond confused, is why in Sams h's acre would you go to the trouble of getting a frame ready and use this type stuff on it.
I find it difficult to understand as well, people will spend hundreds of dollars and sometimes more, preparing a frame for paint....hundreds, just to get it ready and then want to spend $20 or $30 dollars a gallon to paint it and then ask will this give me protection? If your spending that much money and time to get a frame ready, spend the extra little bit of money (and it's not that much more) to do it right and you won't need to worry about it.

Just like the guy that spends $20K to $30K on an engine and wines like a child when the quote to do the body and paint to his specifications costs a similar amount. I guess it's where peoples priorities are...and if it's about priorities, how can you justify spending all the time and money to get the frame ready and cheap out on paint material.

I apologize for being blunt...but I hope I made sense.

Ray
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:05 AM
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THis morning I was thinking of something I told my father many years ago when I asked him about some hamburger that had been in the fridge for way too long. He said not to throw it away because it costs good money. "How much would you pay out of your wallet when you find yourself in puking in the toilet in the middle of the night?" As he was pondering this I reminded him the hamburger cost about $2 would he hand someone two dollars to take way the puking and hurting so he could go back to sleep? LOL, "Throw it out" was the next words out of his mouth.

I thought of this as I pulled a couple of pork patties out of the fridge for breakfast and realizing they had been there a couple of weeks, it smelt fine, but remembering that advice I gave my father, I threw it out.

What would you pay to be looking at a frame under your car that was all finished and seeing paint that was scratching easy or had turned to chalk or what ever to take it way and put nice paint? A damn side more than that paint costs!

There are times to take the gamble, I am with you on that. I recently primed something out in the garage where I found I didn't have enough hardener, this particular thing I was priming didn't matter much, I thought, what the heck and sprayed it taking the gamble that if it totally failed and didn't dry or something goofy I could strip it off the item easy enough, no big deal. But that is a chance I would seldom take because frankly most of the time what I am applying it to is WAY more important and it just wouldn't be worth it to wake up in the middle of the night puking.

Brian
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:05 AM
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I reread the OP and I suppose I shouldn't have responded...I actually didn't want to. So here's my response to your question.

I don't work for Valspar, I'm not a chemist, I do however have many, many years of experience restoring and doing custom work on vehicles and I will need to concur with the people you talked to at Valspar...I "cannot recommend this procedure".

I apologize for my previous post.

Ray
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
I reread the OP and I suppose I shouldn't have responded...I actually didn't want to. So here's my response to your question.

I don't work for Valspar, I'm not a chemist, I do however have many, many years of experience restoring and doing custom work on vehicles and I will need to concur with the people you talked to at Valspar...I "cannot recommend this procedure".

I apologize for my previous post.

Ray
Oh come on now Ray, now you are making me feel bad. It only takes a minute to give good advice as you did, even if the OP didn't ask for it. I am sorry but that is as valuable as giving "how to" advice. "How NOT to" is just as important.

Brian
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:32 AM
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To the OP, this may be the private label for Cat that they resell and that is why they will not give you type of activator too use.

So to be safe, why not buy a pint of activator from the paint shop and the drier they are using?
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK View Post
To the OP, this may be the private label for Cat that they resell and that is why they will not give you type of activator too use.

So to be safe, why not buy a pint of activator from the paint shop and the drier they are using?
That is what I was thinking in my first post, IF they had been doing it and it worked.............and IF I wanted to take the chance, that looked like a decent road test.

Brian
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:14 AM
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No Brian, I'm not at all trying to make you feel bad...and I do try and give good advice, however, the advice I gave was not what the OP asked for and because I never have used Valspar or Cat paint with a catalyst and a drier...I can't say one way or the other if this is going to work, be great or fail...He didn't ask if it was a good idea and that's where I was wrong, I gave advice about the idea, not about the actual paint working with a hardner and drier.

Ray
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:10 PM
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I not sure but why not just ask "the friend in the paint shop, that has been spraying for years" what the mix ratios and catalsts or hardeners needed to use this with. Seems to me if anyone would know it is the one that has been dealing with it for a long time. Does this make much sensce??
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:23 PM
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Thanks all - I have the option to give it a try. I fully expected the response I got from Valspar, certainly they wouldn't say "absolutely, it's the same product as our ....." I also fully expected the "why in Sam Hill would you want to ....." responses here. I was asking because it may be a convenient, inexpensive and viable option for my K frame and some suspension components on a current project. The discussion I had with my friend piqued my interest, I figured this forum would be one of the best for experienced feedback (and it is). If I can pick up a good quality 2K semi flat chassis paint for a great price - I ain't stoopid, why wouldn't I look into it ? As far as my methods - I'm a freak for research and not moving forward until I feel confident an application will work, whether it's crankshaft endplay, mig welding a patch, filler work, etc. This is only my fourth resto, takes me a few years, and they're done right. I'll research more and experiment this week, see how it acts without , and with, the activator they use (Valspar LIC brand LC40). I'm thinking the CAT stuff may be the same as the LIC40/43 but it's kept on the down-low, CAT just doesn't label theirs as "polyurethane enamel" but just "enamel" :

Valspar Automotive - LIC Brand

I know polyurethanes will air dry (slowly) over time -maybe the activator gives it a kick, dunno. Thanks for the feedback as always - great bunch of guys.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:11 PM
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I understand your point and answered with what I know, and that isn't Valspar. If you have asked the same question about one that I worked with, S-W I could tell you exactly what you want to hear on a few lines, I do know which ones share toners and what not, they are the exact same product one sells for $75 a gallon the other $300 SAME EXACT product so I understand your curiosity. IF you can get the REAL answer then of course you can go for it and not think a thing, as I would. If you don't get the REAL answer an only a bunch of "Maybes" from us and others I would say your best bet is to stay away from it.

But if someone comes along with Valspar "insider" info, heck yeah rock on. And again, if that guy you talked to has been doing it a long while and you have seen long term results, there is test bed.

Brian
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