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Old 04-22-2009, 06:10 PM
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advice/thoughts/suggestions 327 build

I am currently out of work and have a lot of spare time on my hands so I am getting together a "build sheet" of sorts for the 327 I plan to build to go in a 68' Camaro.

The "overall" goal with the car is to have something that is relatively "mild mannered" on the street, ie; won't overheat in a parade or traffic, will "idle" and have decent power brake vacuum. I am re-building a Muncie M-20 for the car with 1" shaft and "supercase", the rear end and rear suspension have not been determined yet, but since I will also need to be able to drive at highway speeds for "longish" trips I want to keep the rear somewhere about 3.56 to maybe just a bit taller 3.33 or so.

The block is a 3903352 327 block from a 67-68 Impala
Crank is 4577 3.25 stroke, forged steel

For the bottom end I am think to do the following
I will have the block completely cleaned, shot blasted and checked for cracks.
Then have the main caps "doweled and strapped" with ARP studs
Line hone the mains and cam journals to "realign" them
Deck the block 25 thousandths to 9.00"
Bore/hone to about .35 to .040" over
Have the crank polished (pretty sure it does NOT need grinding)
Balance the crank and flywheel assembly
Might possibly have it "knife edged" and lightened a bit first (not sure yet)

I plan to use Eagle H beam rods in either 5.850" or 6.00" I did not get rods with the crank so rather than just go with 5.7"s I figured to get the rod/stroke ratio to 1.8+/1

Piston choice is next, I know I want "flat tops" so the Compression Height would be determined by the rod length chosen and the overbore


I want to build as "bullet proof" a bottom end that I can while not "breaking the bank" and sticking with a period correct 327 block and crank. I am thinking that this motor might go through some "stages" in the future so I want the short block to be able to handle a bit more than the what I am first building it to.

So here are my questions/ things I want comments/suggestions on.

1: Any suggestions as to Hypereutectic or Forged pistons. The engine will be carb-ed but I might want a 50-100 shot of NOS at some point (just to really have those rice burner kids sh** their pants) I have also thought about 18 degree flat tops to give me more valve clearance with the zero or "popped up" deck height and long duration cam.

2: Taking into account that maybe I might want a little "juice" squirt in the future should I look at the 5.850" rods rather than 6" to keep some space between the piston head and the wrist pin and not "bunch up" the rings?

3: Compression ratio, I would like to build a little "adjustment" into the motor, so I am thinking to try and keep the piston just flush with the deck at TDC or "popped" up 5 thou or less. Then use a "thin" head gasket and slightly larger chamber to get my desired C/R that way I can go with a bit bigger bore, thicker gasket if I need to lower the C/R for more juice in the future. Sound like an idea?

4": HEADS?? Trying to pick a good set of heads is like trying to read the "fine print" on a Credit Card agreement! I have read every damn article and test out there for the past few YEARS and I still don't think I have a CLUE what I REALLY WANT to run for heads. I know that they are probably the single most influence on the power and response of the engine BUT I also don't have the "budget" to spend $2,200+ on a set of heads. What I am asking here is, can anyone "convince" me that a set of $1,600 AFR heads will have a noticeable advantage over a set of Vortec's modified for higher lift? I can pick up a set of Vortecs and build them for about half of the AFR's.

Any other suggestions? Anyone with "speerience" on a similar type 327 build?

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Old 04-22-2009, 06:30 PM
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Before I answer, I will say you have me completely confused. You don`t plan to race this engine, you don`t want it to over heat on the street. Then why do you need to have it align honed and the main caps doweled? None of this is needed for a basic street machine. then on the bottom end selection your going way overboard for nothing. Going with a longer rod won`t improve power nor will any of the mods you mention on the bottom end.
You don`t need nitrous to out run ricer kids. You can do this easily with close to a stock small block. You have to understand, yeah the ricers can rev but what they lack is TORQUE. And torque is what moves the vehicle, not horsepower. In a 1/8 or 1/4 mile race against a ricer is a smoked turkey. Most of the time the ricers find themselves shamed and won`t even challenge you to a race when they know you have V8 muscle.
You can`t have your cake and eat it too so you need to figure out just what you want this engine to do. If you plan to kill with it you need more cubic inches. If you want a nice daily driver and plenty of power to eat ricers the 327 will work fine in a very close to stock configuration with a few selected performance parts.
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:55 PM
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So you think I am going "overboard" on the bottom end?

In your opinion what is a "safe" max power level for the stock crank and block assuming just an upgrade to ARP studs? 400-500?

I have "access" to VERY low pricing on machine work (read friend who can do "government work" at his machine shop) BUT if you think line honing is not really something to worry about then I might just save some money, time and effort.

ROD/STROKE ratio certainly DOES have an effect on power. It's simple physics and mechanical advantage. The longer rod also contributes to lowering the piston speed and lets it spend a little more "time" near and just after TDC on the power stroke.

I want this motor to live thru excursions up into the high 6000 rpm range.

Here in CT we must have a different "breed" of ricers, there are PLENTY of cars out here with turbos and plenty of torque, I have SEEN with my own eyes a few turbo'ed Hondas putting down 400HP to the front wheels! Also, they have a few hundred pound weight advantage. I myself had a Turbo Charged 2.0L VW engine that put out in the high 300 HP range and would turn up to about 9,000RPM safely, on a STOCK bottom end! (for a few years in the early to mid 90's VW used all FORGED internals crank, rods, pistons.)

That was in an 86' GTI that weighed only 2300lbs!

SO what I am saying is with at 3300lbs I NEED 400-500HP to smoke em'
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:00 PM
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In addition torque is also multiplied by the tranny and rear end so building a slightly smaller but better and higher revving engine can let you use more multiplication and for longer. This would tend to "negate" the slight advantage of 23 more cubic inches. Also, ANYONE can do a 350 or 383 stroker, it takes a little thought and attention to detail to build a good 327. LOL
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:07 PM
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Not sure if you're a Nascar fan or not Doublevision but look at what they do with 358 cubic inches? 800-900 horsepower?, no blower, turbo or NOS. They do it by using small journals, long rods, high RPM. They pay close attention to tolerances, coating and finishes etc.

I know I am comparing "apples to oranges" but there is something to be said for things like bearing speed, oil control, rod/stroke ratio etc. I only have the budget to do this ONCE so attention to detail to help the motor live is important. I would rather spend a little more on the "blueprinting" and detail work to the shortblock than build it all over again after picking it up off the asphalt.
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1968ccaammaarroo
ROD/STROKE ratio certainly DOES have an effect on power. It's simple physics and mechanical advantage. The longer rod also contributes to lowering the piston speed and lets it spend a little more "time" near and just after TDC on the power stroke.
Rods certianly do affect power, but its on a VERY small scale- and longer is not always better. The type of waterpump you choose will likely affect power more than the length of rod you use. You're spending too much time on all of the wrong areas.


I would go with 6" rods for a few other reason, but the rod ratio creating power is not realy one of them. Running 6" rods in a 327 with 10.5:1 compression with some nice 190ccish aluminum heads will definitely be a street brawler- don't forget the valvetrain, cam, intak, carb, exhaust, trans, and rear end to match though.


If you're racing stoplights a 383" engine will be a much better choice though, as torque does rule the streets and there's no eplacement for displacement.


As to turbo's, I feel that its no longer a ricer thing- sure there are ricer posers but there are also stock looking Ford Focuses running 350 to the wheels on pump gas- just a shame its to the wrong wheels. And I brought up the Focus thing bcause I'm looking at buying a 2002 ZX5.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:27 PM
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Ok, mr. experience tell me your the genius and I`m the moron by pointing it out so many ways when you have no idea of what my experiences are.
When it comes to anything experience is the key. I`ve met I don`t know how many ASE certified mechanics that didn`t know the difference in a carb and fuel injection. There is no substitute for experience. Now, explain to me why your asking the question again? If your experience is that great you don`t need me or any other of this site to answer your question. So since you want to play with me in terms of NASCAR engines and street engines go ahead, I look forward to this. I look as you as another guy that believes everything he`s told and he can use a NASCAR engine in a daily driver. Funny, I never seen a street engine operate at 6000 to 9000 RPM.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:59 PM
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i love this quote "horsepower sell cars but torque wins races"

GET HIM!!!

just kidding

i would listen to these two guys they have already proven them selves on this site time and time again of thier knowlege

just a question from me, with him wanting his pistons to go just above the deck @ TDC, wouldn't his CR be rather high and be in possible danger of hitting the valves before they close + plus posibly hitting the heads and the higher RPM he wants to run?

i could be wrong
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:11 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my87Z
i love this quote "horsepower sell cars but torque wins races"

GET HIM!!!

just kidding

i would listen to these two guys they have already proven them selves on this site time and time again of thier knowlege

just a question from me, with him wanting his pistons to go just above the deck @ TDC, wouldn't his CR be rather high and be in possible danger of hitting the valves before they close + plus posibly hitting the heads and the higher RPM he wants to run?

i could be wrong
You can run them above the deck, but you need a thicker gasket to compensate. You still want .040"ish quench distance and the compression and P/V clearance depend largely on the cam chosen. Really running them at 0 deck is about the best street option.
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Old 04-23-2009, 10:40 AM
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Hey 1968 it seems like your dishing out alot of cash on this motor to be currently out of work. It must be nice.
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
You can run them above the deck, but you need a thicker gasket to compensate. You still want .040"ish quench distance and the compression and P/V clearance depend largely on the cam chosen. Really running them at 0 deck is about the best street option.
i was pretty sure that you could probably do it but ive not heard of doing it before, but when you mention its not that practical for the road that makes a little more sense with trying to run pump gas vs wanting higher CR and only running 110 or better
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:53 PM
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rebuild the block stock with hyper pistons. no need to balance or knife edge or arp bolts or 0 deck or line bore.

use a piston that makes 9.5 to 9.75:1 cr with 64cc heads.

get a set of 180cc darts or afrs with 64cc chambers.

use an edelbrock rpm intake with a holley 750 3310

compcam 270H

1-5/8 long tube headers, x pipe, 2-1/2 pipe with dynomax super turbos

hei ignition

The above set-up will work well with a close ratio 4 speed with a 3.55 gear

or a wide ratio with a 3.36 gear.

use zddp oil additive at each oil change ( www.zddplus.com )

Install a 3.75 stroke and make 17% more power over the 3.25 stroke. That is like a free 60hp shot of n02.

for long highway trips, use 9 to 9.25:1 cr, compcam 260H, 3.08 gear, and a wide ratio 4 speed.
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Old 04-23-2009, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 454C10
rebuild the block stock with hyper pistons. no need to balance or knife edge or arp bolts or 0 deck or line bore.

use a piston that makes 9.5 to 9.75:1 cr with 64cc heads.

get a set of 180cc darts or afrs with 64cc chambers.

use an edelbrock rpm intake with a holley 750 3310

compcam 270H

1-5/8 long tube headers, x pipe, 2-1/2 pipe with dynomax super turbos

hei ignition

The above set-up will work well with a close ratio 4 speed with a 3.55 gear

or a wide ratio with a 3.36 gear.

use zddp oil additive at each oil change ( www.zddplus.com )

Install a 3.75 stroke and make 17% more power over the 3.25 stroke. That is like a free 60hp shot of n02.

for long highway trips, use 9 to 9.25:1 cr, compcam 260H, 3.08 gear, and a wide ratio 4 speed.
While that is a good cruising comob with mild street manners it won't beat the ricers. Not a bad daily driver combo though.

Another thought if you just want a good daily driver is to do a basically stock short block rebuild, use steel shim head gaskets, ported 416 heads with a larger intake valve (small chamber with good flow), an RPM intake, headers, and a cam around 220/225 duration @ .050", it'd be cheap, and yet a great street package using mostly stock parts.

Last edited by ap72; 04-23-2009 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 04-23-2009, 04:16 PM
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270H has 224/224 at 0.050"

260H has 212/212 at 0.050"

Dart or AFR heads will easily out power stock gm heads of that time period. Porting stock heads makes no sense unless you do it yourself. And I don't think the guy in a head porter. Just buy good heads and move on.
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Old 04-23-2009, 04:27 PM
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depends on whether you want to spend the extra 500 on a set of alm heads or not, i know that dart makes steel heads but ive never heard of afr making steel heads
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