Age old question. Turbo Vs. Supercharger - Page 3 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
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View Poll Results: Turbo or Supercharger?
Turbo!! 26 37.68%
Supercharger!! 43 62.32%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2004, 03:02 PM
TurboS10's Avatar
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Thank you willys. I am glad to know I am not an idiot He was making me wonder.



Chris

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2004, 09:04 PM
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lol, time to put away the shovel dude

K
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2004, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TurboS10
lover,

To say heat is not energy really shows that you have no concept of thermodynamics or basic physics for that matter. It does not make me much difference if you think I am wrong.....you have proven yourself uneducated. Bet it would blow your mind if I told you that heat energy is what makes an engine run, but that is neither here nor there since you dont understand.

Here is the first thing that popped up on google: http://www.powermasters.com/heat_energy.html

Do some reading.

Chris
Okay dude, your really being an ***. * and we have no more to talk about, I did'nt start this, you did, just look in your first reply to what I said. Next time dont start something you know I will continue.

I know enough on the subject to know you are dead wrong and that is that. Turbos take power to make power just like superchargers, it may not be the same amount, or it maybe at different amounts at different RPMs, but they are not "free" power addons and heat is a turbos enemy like almost any other piece of hardware.

Quote:
Originally posted by TurboS10
lover,

To say heat is not energy really shows that you have no concept of thermodynamics or basic physics for that matter. It does not make me much difference if you think I am wrong.....you have proven yourself uneducated. Bet it would blow your mind if I told you that heat energy is what makes an engine run, but that is neither here nor there since you dont understand.

Here is the first thing that popped up on google: http://www.powermasters.com/heat_energy.html

Do some reading.

Chris
Oh... and "heat energy" doesnt make an engine run, it is the rapid expansion in (gas)pressure caused at combustion, which in turn forces the piston down to rotate the crank to turn the timing chain/flywheel, move the valves/rotate the input shaft, etc.... Heat is the by product of the process which is expelled through the exhaust port to the exhaust system and some of the heat is transfered to the cylinder walls, than to the heads, coolant, etc. through a process called "heat transfer"

Sure heat can be used for other things, like boilers to heat the water to cause expansion, ummm.. updrafts for soaring, ummm.. vaporize gas, etc.

Last edited by Jon; 10-31-2004 at 03:31 PM.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2004, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 87442lover
I know enough on the subject to know you are dead wrong and that is that.


No, You obviously don't.

Quote:
but they are not "free" power addons and heat is a turbos enemy like almost any other piece of hardware.
Heat is the enemy of the turbos shaft bearing and the density of the incoming air. Be specific.

Quote:
Oh... and "heat energy" doesnt make an engine run
Physicists and engineers all over the world are laughin heartily at that uninformed statement.

Quote:
it is the rapid expansion in (gas)pressure caused at combustion, which in turn forces the piston down to rotate the crank to turn the timing chain/flywheel, move the valves/rotate the input shaft, etc....
This rapid expansion is from heat caused by burning fuel. Rapidly heated gases expand. That's why cold air is denser than hot air. There's more of it in the same space. Cram cold air in and heat it with burning fuel (combustion) and it expands because it gets hot.

Quote:
Heat is the by product of the process
Correction, heat is the product of combustion. Carbon monoxide, Carbon and or water vapor, depending on the fuel, are the byproducts of combustion.
[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally posted by 87442lover
And heat is not energy(or at least not that can be used by a turbo ) heat is on of the "by-products" and is not a good thing.
There you go again, Don't believe me or any of us for that matter. Just go and look up the definition of heat. It is energy, period.



Dude, get your physics studies up to date. Saying that heat is not energy is like saying that your butt don't stink. All heat is energy and the Virgin Mary had a funky smelling butt, we all do.


I'm not trying to make you look bad but when you're wrong, you're wrong. Stop making yourself look like an ignoramus.

Larry

Last edited by coldknock; 10-30-2004 at 10:43 PM.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2004, 11:02 PM
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Look, I've already explained this over and over again, you all can keep on thinking the way you do, I really dont care.

And I know what I'm talking about, btw.

This is like the age old argument of getting 100MPG with gasoline. You have your realist side who only believe what they are told and read, and that a certain amount of energy is present in gas and that is it. Than you have your idealists that know the truth behind the matter and realize that atomized gas is only about 9% efficient.

Two different views. But why not one more time.....

The "heat" does NOT move any of the parts, yes heat from a spark plug or glow plug starts the inital reaction that spreads quickly through the compressed gas/air mixture which causes rapid heat expansion and pressure expansion, the heat sets off the mixture, which combusts which in turn generates heat. It is not the heat, but the actions behind the heat and re-actions. The heat NEVER moves that piston, it is the rapid expansion of gasses in a confined area that pushes down on that piston. The heat is NOT a good thing. It has already been proven that tempetures of around 200-600 deg F are all that really should come out the exhaust port. Sometimes even lower to the point of putting your hand on the exhaust headers and not getting burnt.

Like I said two completely DIFFERENT trains of thought. One will never except the other.

Too much to explain, too few ears that will listen.

Last edited by 87442lover; 10-30-2004 at 11:08 PM.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 12:28 AM
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Bummer. There goes my mechanical engineering degree and 30 years of designing heat engines (Carnot cycles, Rankin Cycles Otto Cycles, and such). And all that time I thought they were heat engines and was calculating the heat input and energy output. Didn't realize that you could get 7000hp out of a TF hemi with just compressed air!

Required reading;

http://hotrodders.com/showthread.php...highlight=otto

http://hotrodders.com/showthread.php...highlight=otto

http://hotrodders.com/showthread.php...highlight=otto

Last edited by willys36@aol.com; 10-31-2004 at 12:54 AM.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 02:01 AM
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knock the sarcasm off and we wont get into these arguements.

Do some research on pouge, eagle research.

Read up on this article as well.
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/...ing/index.html
So in a way, yes, your 30 years of exp. in gasoline engines is obsolete and has been for some time(even when you were learning it). It is just that no one realizes it. Just as all my exp.(6+ years worth) in the Mac OS all the way from system 1.1 till 9.22 it now almost totaly useless. Along with my certs.

You just may never understand. Now how about we knock this childish BS off that turbo started with his reply and get back on topic.

Last edited by 87442lover; 10-31-2004 at 03:09 AM.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 87442lover


You just may never understand. Now how about we knock this childish BS off that turbo started with his reply and get back on topic.
I did not try and start an arguement only put out accurate information. I was simply stating facts that most people accept as....what are those called?.......the laws of physics or something like that.

An engine is designed to convert heat energy into mechanical energy. This process is only about 20-30% effective if memory serves. The wasted heat is expelled in the exhaust gas and into the water jackets then to the radiator. A turbocharger simply regains some of this lost heat energy and converts it to usable work to spin a compressor. This effectively increasing the efficiency of the engine so less heat is wasted and more power is made.

As for the arguement, if we can stay civilized there are alot of good points being produced and those who read this stand to learn alot if they are willing to put aside previously learned false ideas. All that stuff people think is unimportant in science class can become very important when discussing engine processes.

Chris
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 09:03 AM
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Sorry, didn't mean to offend. I'm so excited to go tell my boss Monday that we don't need to worry about using all of those silly heat equations anymore! He'll be so pleased to hear that the physics of thermodynamics is obsolete!!

And thanks for the link to another super carburetor. Too bad that the oil companies and car companies will need to destroy this guy like we have all the rest, but we have to do what we have to do. Throw this in the suppressed bin with the other +100 super carbs I have seen over the past 50 years.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 11:50 AM
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Hmmm. I don't have a degree in engineering or chemistry. IN fact its in Biological Psychology and Cognitive Science....

Boy I'm useless to this discussion!

I do remember something from my under-grand in CHEM: 130...

Let me just patter away uselessly and see where it gets me... Bear with my undereducated butt.

ANyway, as far as I learned, heat is a catalyst which mixes with the oxygen in the air and is compressed to combust (gas has to be compressed to comubst, this is why shooting gas tanks and watchin cars explode on the movies is so silly, right?). The oxygen and gasoline is catalyzed by a high voltage spark. From the pressure gas laws we know that absolute zero is theoretically where molecules cease motion. This is the coldest theoretical temperature, but I don't think its been reached by anything man-made, yet (although I think my mom's old freezer comes close... ). ON the other end we know as we increase temperature for a gas up from A0 that the molecules start moving faster and faster, and become more volatile, right? So the more heat you can introduce to a gas, the more volatile it becomes. If I remember correctly, in a confined space, this volatility becomes "pressure" (as described by the force on the surfaces of the container, conveniently measured in PSI). So if we have a catalyzed reaction in a combustion chamber, and the earth's atmosphere is 80% nitrogen, that works out well! We can burn the gas and oxygen to heat up the nitrogen, create force on the internals of the engine and push the piston down! In fact, if you can decrease the amount of space in which that reaction takes place, you could create even MORE heat and make MORE power, correct?

So I guess the logical question that follows is, if heat is only a byproduct of the reaction and not a product, then regardless of weather heat is produced or not, the engine should run without NEEDING any heat. Is that true?

Well that's all I got. Liberal arts education and all... How far am I off?

K
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by killerformula

So I guess the logical question that follows is, if heat is only a byproduct of the reaction and not a product, then regardless of weather heat is produced or not, the engine should run without NEEDING any heat. Is that true?

K
I am no physics teacher so I dont know how to explain, but no. Heat is part of the process. It is heat and pressure in combination that make the process work. All I can suggest is doing a google on the otto cycle and see what you can get there.

Chris
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 05:28 PM
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Lets see what I remember from my Thermodynamics course.

Heat is not a physical thing, it is a process. "Heat" as you call it is the transfer of energy.

Now, for the meduim, in this case a jumble of NOx's COx's etc (exhaust gas), there is a certain amount of energy contained, enthalpy.

Now, there are a few different energy transfer processes. Isobaric, Isothermal etc etc.

The fact that EGTs after the turbo are much lower than the EGTs infront of it are simple, easy to see/understand proof that the "heat" (thermal energy) is being used to do work.

Ever heard of the "Heat engine" concept? Its the basic example that most every Thermodyn Prof teaches the basic concepts with.

I'm not going to explain the whole theory to you as it would be pages and pages of typing.

THere have been a number of people who posted before me that DO know what they're talking about.

But just suck it up, swallow your pride and admit that you don't know what your talking about.

Mike

Oh BTW, S/C have the Nostalgia factor, but as far as efficiency goes, turbo's take the win. All depends what you want.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 05:49 PM
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I've kicked around both systems for a while now. I settled on a supercharger, because I've wanted one since I was a kid. And, I figure I can be satisfied with the torque of a 1,000 H.P. blown 572.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 07:26 PM
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As already said, two totally different trains of thought.

It is not the heat you want, it is the pressure of the gasses before the turbo you want for the turbo to spin up. And NO seeing that the heat is lower after the turbo is not a sign of the turbo "using" heat energy. It is simply absorbing the heat throught heat transfer like a heatsink. It is then transmitted to the coolant in the turbo and the oil in the turbo where it is cooled(heat transfer) by the air outside the turbo and the coolant/oil is cooled by the radiator/oil cooler, or the oil is cooled by transfering heat to the coolant.

Heat is the enemy.

The pressure is also a BAD thing for the engine as this causes what is know as "back pressure" back into the combustion chamber and the engine has to work harder to push that piston up and expel that gas through the tight space(the smaller the volume of the pipe gets, ie. entrace to the turbo, the higher the velocity of the gasses) of the turbo casing and impeller which makes the impeller spin which drives the other impeller on the same shaft, which forces the air into the engine. That simple, it still robs power. Especially down low in the RPMs when there is vacuum because the demands of the engine can't be met by the turbo as there is not enough exhaust pressure to drive the impeller fast enough. So you have a huge exhaust restriction up till about 3000 RPM (depending on .ar size, and casing restriction can vary) and then after that you have an even bigger exhaust restriction, BUT the turbo is now poducing enough boost to compensate for that loss.

Sigh... said the same thing once again. But still no one will listen.

Alot of that "excess" heat is the fuel continuing to burn after the combustion process and creating more heat. This is almost eliminated in a vaporized system as the fuel/air mix is more optimal and the fuel is already vaporized before it enter the combustion chamber where it is compressed once again, only this time the mix has greater effiency because of the vaporization and cracking process so it burns colder.

As said once again, all your teaching is... well.. wrong to say the least, but I simply can't explain it to any of you as it is too difficult for you all to face the truth of the matter. But hell, what do I know, right? I'm just the guy that thinks out of the box and reads up on different subjects. I'm not the one that had all that info hammered into my head so I could'nt understand anything else. So yeah, what do I know to all of you?

Only thing I got to show is my upcoming ASE and other stupid certs.

Sigh....

BTW, my votes still and always on a centrifugal supercharger.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2004, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 87442lover
As already said, two totally different trains of thought.

It is not the heat you want, it is the pressure of the gasses before the turbo you want for the turbo to spin up. And NO seeing that the heat is lower after the turbo is not a sign of the turbo "using" heat energy. It is simply absorbing the heat throught heat transfer like a heatsink. It is then transmitted to the coolant in the turbo and the oil in the turbo where it is cooled(heat transfer) by the air outside the turbo and the coolant/oil is cooled by the radiator/oil cooler, or the oil is cooled by transfering heat to the coolant.

This makes sense to me, does anybody disagree with the statement? It seems that a turbo doesn't NEED or USE the heat from exhaust gas, but rather it just uses the energy of the motion of the gas like one fan blowing on the blades of another. Seems if the exhaust of an ICE were cool, but had the same velocity and volume, it would still spin up the turbo and make power, correct?

K
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