[rogen]

Originally Posted by BarryK

He is posted here under about 7 different names that I know of.

And you know that because you're a member of the admin here and have access to the users ip addresses?

Or is it simply more innuendo, which nobody here can ever seem to support with solid facts.

[rogen]

Originally Posted by crashtech

I haven't seen professional use of acrylic enamel with a basecoat converter for a long time- since the eighties, to be exact. It's just not a very good way to go

Why? A lot of you don't seem to keep in mind that many people come here to be educated. When you make a statement such as the one quoted, some people might ask why, like i just did.

Why isn't it a good way to go? If you tell your child not to put their hand in a fire, you tell them why not to, because they'll be burned and it'll hurt, don't you? Just saying not to do something without a valid reason not to always leaves the door open for them to try it, finding out the hard way.

Sorry for rambling, why isn't converting AE to a basecoat a good way to go?

[Dbodily]

Originally Posted by rogen

Yes, I do agree, anyone with a beef should be big enough to step up to the plate and take the swing and at the same time, be prepared to be bood if they strike out.

I don't see it so much as not factual information coming from d71 buy more of how he did it. Everyone has a different personality and we all have our bad days.

This seemed to have started because of the slander of a product which wasn't used like it should have been and that user got bood for striking out. As we all know, emotions can and do run high in a good game.

Actually, I don't see what the big deal is. He has his personality, you, yours.

Hey rogen is bood a new word I am not familiar with of did you just forget an "e". booed = disapproval - - use spell check

[jcclark]

Originally Posted by rogen

Sorry for rambling, why isn't converting AE to a basecoat a good way to go?

Fair question, I'd like to know too.
I'm sure most people think it would be more widespread in the auto
industry if it was ok or better. The standard changed from the acrylic
enamel days and I'm sure most everyone agrees that it changed for the
better. Acrylic enamel is still a good product but few use it because there
are better products now, base-coat/clear-coat.
I do know urethane over acrylic enamel is not as good
as over base coat, at least that's what the paint people at PPG told me.
So wouldn't you think converting acrylic enamel to a base coat is kind
of redundant? When I priced the enamel, lazer dry and hardener it
was as much or more than a off-brand base coat, so why?
The base coat lays better, dries smoother, and is easier to work with.
Remember, I've used both. Only because back when using the enamel
converter I didn't have a equally priced basecoat available.Now I do
so I won't go back, even if the enamel had held up for me.
Also remember, I've never had a base-coat fail on me in the past 15
yrs of using it, only done one Lazer Dry, it failed. So why gamble.

[rogen]

Originally Posted by Dbodily

Hey rogen is bood a new word I am not familiar with of did you just forget an "e". booed = disapproval - - use spell check

You were right the 1st time, it's a new word, that perhaps you aren't familiar with.

Sorry that you weren't able to grasp the context of what I said because one word hung you up. I'll try to do better the next time and not use any complex, convaluted words

[Dbodily]

Oh please PLEASE do!

[Dbodily]

P.S. Your finger is still missing the spell check button. Convaluted is really spelled convoluted. Just trying to help you out here Ace.

[crashtech]

Originally Posted by jcclark

Fair question, I'd like to know too.
I'm sure most people think it would be more widespread in the auto
industry if it was ok or better. The standard changed from the acrylic
enamel days and I'm sure most everyone agrees that it changed for the
better. Acrylic enamel is still a good product but few use it because there
are better products now, base-coat/clear-coat.
I do know urethane over acrylic enamel is not as good
as over base coat, at least that's what the paint people at PPG told me.
So wouldn't you think converting acrylic enamel to a base coat is kind
of redundant? When I priced the enamel, lazer dry and hardener it
was as much or more than a off-brand base coat, so why?
The base coat lays better, dries smoother, and is easier to work with.
Remember, I've used both. Only because back when using the enamel
converter I didn't have a equally priced basecoat available.Now I do
so I won't go back, even if the enamel had held up for me.
Also remember, I've never had a base-coat fail on me in the past 15
yrs of using it, only done one Lazer Dry, it failed. So why gamble.

Well, I think you answered it pretty well on your own. Acrylic enamel is an intermediate technology between synthetic enamel and full on acrylic urethane. It's obsolete, especially as a basecoat, where it requires special products (crutches, IMHO) to even be useable. Even with the special reducers or in this specific case, "LazerDry", you can't compare the metallic control and layout of a basecoat to an acrylic enamel. I think if acrylic enamel has a place, it would be for an economical job in a single stage solid color. Two-stage jobs should be shot with a dedicated basecoat system, period. I'd sure like to hear from a pro shop that uses acrylic enamel basecoats. Frankly, I'd be amazed.

[MARTINSR]

I hate to tell you, but many base coat systems are acrylic enamel based!

All the first generation systems that are still in use from DuPont, PPG, S-W, etc. are all acrylic enamel based.

Not that I agree with "conversion" products, I am just stating the facts.

Brian

[rogen]

Originally Posted by Dbodily

P.S. Your finger is still missing the spell check button. Convaluted is really spelled convoluted. Just trying to help you out here Ace.

Thanks man, I do need all the help I can get. Don't think it's not appreciated, you looking out for me.

Have you ever noticed how when faced with a controversialy subject where a good answer can't be provided, we humans try to switch the focus to small, miniscule crap like, for example, the length of someones hair, their status or spelling or other trivial stuff.

[rogen]

Originally Posted by MARTINSR

I hate to tell you, but many base coat systems are acrylic enamel based!

All the first generation systems that are still in use from DuPont, PPG, S-W, etc. are all acrylic enamel based.

Not that I agree with "conversion" products, I am just stating the facts.

Brian

Why'd you spill the beans. I would have thought that these guys would've known that.

And as to the logic for not using AE. It's flawed. Just because there is newer technology does not make the older technology bad or unusable or even not suitable for one or another persons need.

I have a modern central air and heat unit in my home but also have a wood/coal burner. Is the coal burner not suitable simply because the central is more modern. There are definate advantages to just flipping the switch on a thermostat but again, the coal burner is still very useful and effective.






Hey dude, don't forget to spell check this one for me and Thanks man!

[milo]

hey...hey...I'm the smart ash around here ...

[rogen]

Originally Posted by milo

hey...hey...I'm the smart ash around here ...

Sorry, I didn't know I was stepping on anyones toes. I'll watch it in the future and thanks for the heads up

[crashtech]

Originally Posted by MARTINSR

I hate to tell you, but many base coat systems are acrylic enamel based!

All the first generation systems that are still in use from DuPont, PPG, S-W, etc. are all acrylic enamel based.

Not that I agree with "conversion" products, I am just stating the facts.

Brian

It could be that I have no experience with the first generation products you mention. In the eighties I went from a shop that used R-M lacquer as basecoat with a urethane clearcoat designed for this application. After that I went to a shop that used Sikkens. These days we use PPG's DBC basecoat. Now in reality, even though your contention is most likely true, these products bear no resemblence during use to any acrylic enamel I have ever used, whether mixed with "lazerdry" or "basemaker" or what have you. If they did, we'd all still be using Centari, Delstar, and the like. So while my knowledge of paint chemistry is lacking, my practical experience with these products is not. Are you just trying to make a point, or would you go as far as to say that converted acrylic enamel is just as good as a modern base/clear system? And if not, give jcclark the correct reason he is looking for.

[shine]

i've been at this for 35 years and can give you a good reason not to use some of this wonder stuff. ever had a failure ? had to chem strip a car to get some crap off so you can redo the entire job? customer raising hell about the cheap stuff you used? it only takes one to wipe out a full qrt of profits if not more. been there , done that, got the tshirt. we had reps in the shop every week during the 80's all selling new improved wonder paint that would save us $$$$. bull**** ! i learned the hard way. i use ppg or Dupont 1st line paint period. the few hundred dollars you'll save is not worth the gamble and for a hobbyist it's insane to take a chance. you don't have the experience to fix it if it blows up. yes new technologies are better than old. i Dot begin to think i'm smarter than the ones designing it. why convert ae to base? just buy some good bc and be done with it. just my opinion.