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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2011, 07:56 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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First of all, are you looking to buy BOTH of these or one of them? Because you are looking at two totally different animals.
The ND is a true "DA" (Dual Action) while the other is an orbital sander and NOT a "DA". The Chicago Pneumatic is more of a rough finishing sander a 6" "block" if you will.
The ND is more of a work horse sander that is more suited for sanding metal and feathering thick paint prior to priming. The CP is a pretty coarse sanding orbital at 3/8" so it isn't a real good finish sander though. I would buy the ND then buy a finer sanding orbital like this one http://www.nationaltoolwarehouse.com...r-P135110.aspx for more finishing sanding work. I use something like this most of the time for feathering out paint prior to primer and finishing off filler work prior to a final block.

Brian

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2011, 07:57 AM
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http://www.nationaltoolwarehouse.com...ad-P50615.aspx

This is the DAQ that I use.

Brian
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2011, 03:10 PM
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I went ahead and bought the DAQ that you linked to. For the most part I'll be prepping panels for primer so I don't think I'll need a finish sander at this time. Hopefully this one will work faster than my Craftsman. With 80 grit 3M paper on it, it seems to take forever to work through the multiple paint jobs on my car.
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Old 05-12-2011, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jman340
I went ahead and bought the DAQ that you linked to. For the most part I'll be prepping panels for primer so I don't think I'll need a finish sander at this time. Hopefully this one will work faster than my Craftsman. With 80 grit 3M paper on it, it seems to take forever to work through the multiple paint jobs on my car.
Is that ND a 3/8" or 3/16" orbit? I didn't see that listed.
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Old 05-12-2011, 03:27 PM
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3/8

Here is a link to their web site with more details:

http://www.nationaldetroit.com/tools...aspx?model=DAQ
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2011, 04:24 PM
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Thanks.
I might consider that one too. I wouldn't mind having a 3/8" orbit D/A to compliment the 3/16" IR palm I just bought. I don't do enough work to have a want for the "hog". I also don't need a 3/32" finisher since I do all my finishing by hand.
You found a pretty darn good price on that DAQ.
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Old 05-12-2011, 08:50 PM
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The DAQ is a good work horse.

Brian
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Old 05-13-2011, 12:08 PM
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Thanks guys.

I just bought that DAQ as well. It looks like the spinning weight is protected on that model from fingers. I've caught a finger on the weight a few times with my HF D/A and it doesn't feel good at all.

Both models I bought should come in handy for the furniture work my wife and I do as well as the car projects.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2011, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1
Ordered this one:

IR 4151

I decided I wanted to get a general purpose palm type and this one seemed to fit the bill. It's a 3/16 orbit.
Thats a great sander ,I have one,I use it for everything,its light and its a workhorse plus uses less air than my old ,heavy hutchins that I'll never part with..Hutchins is hands down the best finish sander on the planet 350.00, But I do love my little IR if you change the pad its even better ,if I could only have one it would be the IR ,but I dont think it'll last 25yrs and still be kicking,like my hutch....You made a great choice but change that pad if you want to do finish work....
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2011, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jman340
Glad I saw this post, I'm in the market to upgrade from my Craftsman DA to something a little better.
I've been looking at the following models

National Detroit DA
http://www.nationaltoolwarehouse.com...30674C405.aspx

And
Chicago Pneumatic 7215
http://www.nationaltoolwarehouse.com...35108C405.aspx

Price is about the same from this supplier. I like the design of the CP better, as it looks like it would be more comfortable to use. However, it rates the average and actual air consumption at 8 and 16 cfm. Most other sanders I've seen list in scfm, so not sure is this one uses more air.

Anybody have any experience with any of these?
the one on top is very heavy and pretty much junk its an air hog and that spinning bearing can and will catch your finger ,I've seen guys do some serious damage to their finger and even loose the nail completely.steer clear of any of these mangler type sanders.....
The one on the bottom looks like a nice one and a much better choice..havent used one though...
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2011, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Are there differences? HELL YES! BIG ones. If you are using a cheapie Chinese Red Army store da you will want to smash it with a hammer once you start using a quality tool. Right off the bat most use MUCH less air so they are way more powerful. I have a HF (Chinese Red Army) die grinder I bought for a particular tool that seldom used and didn't want to have to change it out of my good die grinder while doing this stuff for a living (I have four die grinders with the different tools, two drills dedicated to certain bits, etc.)

This tools job was very simple, it really didn't need much power to get it done, it SUCKS and barely just barely can do it. My similar quality die grinders would kick it's ever loving butt.

There is nothing that makes more sense to me than buying quality tools. If you do it for a living, for God's sake do I have to tell you? But if you are doing this stuff at home, the learning curve is steep enough doing this stuff do you really want to have to overcome using the junk tool too? Do you know what your HF da is worth after you bring it home from the store? NOTHING, you couldn't sell a used HF tool for a dollar. How about a National Detroit Da, it costs about $150-190 how much is it worth ten years from now if still in good condition? You could STILL sell it for $100 or something on ebay. If you bought that tool 25 years ago when they WERE about $75 you could sell it for what you paid for it!

There are all kinds of brands that will do the job for you. Here is what I used every day for years upon years doing it for a living.

"Hog" as Tech mentioned. A ND (National Detroit) 900 is THE tool for cutting filler and stripping paint. When mine broke (after about 10 years of daily service) I wouldn't live a day without it, I bought a new one then sent the old out for rebuild. Now I have two and never have to worry about being without one. I don't know what kind of deal you can get but here is one for $185.00 (Clickhere) This tool is literally an 8" block. You can cut filler flat like a block with this tool, it is a WORKHORSE tool that I wouldn't live without.



For a "DA" the National Detroit "DAQ". This is THE workhorse DA of all time. Again, used one for a couple of decades just about daily rebuilding it once in a while, they are a SUPER tool. Here's one for $165 (click here) This is a REAL "DA" (Dual Action) being that it has a little lock that you flip for changing it from an orbial sander into a grinder with the disc spinning without an orbit. Again, it is a work horse, aggressive sander and NOT for finish sanding, at least not anymore. There was a day when that is exactly what it was used for. It is the grandfather of the DAs. I use mine in the grinder mode for metal finishing only these days (repairing without the use of any filler) being I have other orbital sanders for doing paint prep work.



Then the "Orbital" for finish sanding and sanding primer and the like. I have had one of these DynaBrades for years and it has given me ZERO problems.
Here is one for $185. (click here) This is not a "Dual action" in that it only orbits. This is where the different orbit patterns comes into play, the smaller the more for finishing. Picture this as a 6" "block" it works THAT good. With some use you can "block" filler perfectly flat with this baby, it's a great tool.



All of these tools blow away anything at HF. They would stomp on them in comparison.

Brian
The 8" is a very good sander, its bigger "footprint" works like a snow shoe for sanding filler on flimsy stuff like hoods (sometimes even better than hand blocking, its a must have tool This is one of the best out there...But that aluminum backer pad should be replaced or at least checked for being true every time you use it ,it dont take much to bend it,if your handle moves up and down while sanding (also true with the da),its bent....They make a fiberglass pad for the 8" thats 100% better....
I have no use for any 6" DA with a handle on it...especially in the hands of someone learning...and that aluminum backing pad has no business on a DA for the same reasons I mentioned above PLUS it'll damage a door edge if it makes contact...All those aluminum pads are garbage....
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2011, 07:51 AM
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That's absolutely right about the backing plate. I have a mac one and one day I looked at it and realized I may have been mistreating it cause it was bent up. I then bent it back and now it's straight. I think there's bolts that bolt it on and you have access on the bottom, on mine at least. I love the hog. Such a wonderful tool. Unlike Martin and his superman abilities, wouldn't final my filler with it though or even for recoat. I always do that by hand with 40 grit. I also stopped using my handled da cause of the hog. Once you have an arsenal of da's and a hog it's kind of useless in my opinion cause if I want it rough I go for the hog, which cancels out the handled da, if I want finesse it's a finishing sander or a more aggressive palm sander. There's no longer room in my processes for a handled da. Plus mine has the counter weight that can rip off my finger.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2011, 08:16 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
The 8" is a very good sander, its bigger "footprint" works like a snow shoe for sanding filler on flimsy stuff like hoods (sometimes even better than hand blocking, its a must have tool This is one of the best out there...But that aluminum backer pad should be replaced or at least checked for being true every time you use it ,it dont take much to bend it,if your handle moves up and down while sanding (also true with the da),its bent....They make a fiberglass pad for the 8" thats 100% better....
I have no use for any 6" DA with a handle on it...especially in the hands of someone learning...and that aluminum backing pad has no business on a DA for the same reasons I mentioned above PLUS it'll damage a door edge if it makes contact...All those aluminum pads are garbage....
DBM, I know a lot of guys don't like the good old DAQ anymore. I had one fellow at work who gave me a perfectly good one (we are talking looked like new). Then one day he was doing a door skin and I showed him how I use it and he was so blown away he stole the DAQ back the next day. No kidding, the friggin thing was stolen the next day and I never saw it again. FRIGGIN JERK man how I hate thieves! Which of course I would put money on it he had stolen it from someone when he gave it to me.

I sure as heck know what you are talking about being hit by that counter weight, oh yea I know that feeling! But I got rid of every tool in my tool box that had hurt me, I wouldn't have any tools. HELL, I wouldn't have a tool box, it fell over on me once and screwed up my leg bad.

But anyway, here is that tool in use as taught to me at one of my first jobs at a full on restoration shop in the late seventies. "Basics of Basics Small dent repair" (click here)

As far as the pads bending, you are right that the aluminum backing can bend easy. But I have found that if the tool is treated with care it can be used for years without damage. The biggest thing is how it is set down or dropped. Over the years I have seen a difference between how other guys treat their tools and how I treat mine and how they will have more problems in this area than I do. I see a BIG difference in this treatment of tools with most guys. I care for tools such as long boards and these tools like they are the tool doing the precision work I ask of them. Like a machinist would treat his micrometer or vernier calipers is how I treat those tools and it pays off.

Brian
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2011, 08:19 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tech69
That's absolutely right about the backing plate. I have a mac one and one day I looked at it and realized I may have been mistreating it cause it was bent up. I then bent it back and now it's straight. I think there's bolts that bolt it on and you have access on the bottom, on mine at least. I love the hog. Such a wonderful tool. Unlike Martin and his superman abilities, wouldn't final my filler with it though or even for recoat. I always do that by hand with 40 grit. I also stopped using my handled da cause of the hog. Once you have an arsenal of da's and a hog it's kind of useless in my opinion cause if I want it rough I go for the hog, which cancels out the handled da, if I want finesse it's a finishing sander or a more aggressive palm sander. There's no longer room in my processes for a handled da. Plus mine has the counter weight that can rip off my finger.
You are right about needing to block the filler, but damn you can get close with that Hog! I am blown away at how close you can get with it or the little 6" orbital I posted, they really are great tools for finish work.

Brian
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2011, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
I have no use for any 6" DA with a handle on it...especially in the hands of someone learning..
You are right there, it can be an aggressive tool. As long as the newbe isn't trying to do finish sanding or something it should be fine. I can remember when it was the ONLY option so the learning curve is steep.

Brian
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