Since RB's Obsolete had the Cool-Car ceramic insulation on backorder and did not inform me after 3 weeks of waiting on it I have done some research. Seems all the high priced ceramic paint on insulating materials aka Lizard Skin, Cool-Car and such are a simple mixture of an exterior latex paint with ceramic micro spheres added to it. Having been a radio control aircraft enthusiast I have used ceramic spheres mixed with epoxy to form various fillets on model aircraft. I would buy these ceramic spheres (Micro Balloons is what they are called) in bulk from either Aircraft Spruce or Wicks Aircraft Supply. A gallon bag of the spheres cost about $6.00. You can see the potential cost savings here. A one gallon pail of exterior latex house paint, add some Micro Balloons to it and you basically have the same thing as Lizard Skin or Cool-Car for a mere fraction of the price. A 2 gallon pail of Lizard Skin is about $160 ain:
I agree that there is some optimum mixture that is desirable. The trick is reaching or discovering that formula and also having a product that is viscous enough for application and good adherence. I tried mixing as much micro spheres as possible to a gallon of exterior latex but it was next to impossible to spray the stuff and it didn't want to dry properly.
The last time I made some sound deadener messin around, I used 4micron 12% by vol and 50micron 8% by volume in a latex neutral base.
I mixed my arm off. In the end it seemed like it could have held more, but I didnt have a pressure pot at the time. When you go shopping for paint, find the thickest neutral base. No pigment. Then color the last coat if needed.
I have 4kg of of P2011SL left. $20/kg if anyone wants some.
I also did another method using glass beads from highway paint. These are much bigger (and probably not 'beads'). For the sake of this I will say 150-200microns.? I sprayed an offroad only 4x4 with these for visual purposes. I sprayed white base, then mixed some in clear. But these are so heavy, the clear wouldnt hold hardly any, or else I would have had to spray 30coats to get the desired concentration. So I would spray on a slow clear, then use my flakebuster and hose on the glass beads. Worked much better. I did this till the concentration was 100%. Probably 4coats.
As far as sound deadener, that definitely worked, although that wasnt the intended purpose. I figured durability would suck, but its been great so far. If you rub something against the paint job like say a chain or jack, it just glides on the glass beads. Feels pretty kewl. But, if a moron loses his brakes on a hill and t bones you, it does fail.
I wanted to try and revive this thread to see if there are anymore updates. I was shopping lizard skin and Second Skin's Spectrum and felt that there had to be updates.. I contact Henry.com on thier henry 287 and they did not know of anyone adding micro spheres. In the time that has elapsed, is there a formula of Elastomeric paint, micro sheres (size and quantity), ceramic additives, calcium carbonate, titanium, etc..etc..etc.. I want to try something proven or close to the comercial versions.. Any help would be greatly appreciated..
I read this whole thing over a while back and I was going to do the inside of my fiberglass car. I even have some micro balloons I got from an aircraft supply. My main concern was that I could not be assured that I could get a paint compatible surface...clean enough and roughed up enough for the paint mix to stick. Obviously it would turn out to be a mess in the end. So I did not proceed.
I think if you could get a good surface ready for paint and etching primer I'd mix up a slurry of micro balloons and try a small area first. Be sure you use a filter mask mixing the micro ballons. You don't want to breathe any of this stuff.
About 1 1/2 yrs. ago I did a '32 Victoria f/glass body with the micro spheres and a good quality exterior house paint from Home Depot. It was pretty much the thickness of pancake batter, no way to spray it. I just took my time and used a brush for the tight spots, a 4" and 8" roller for everything else. Once dried it stuck on very good and really did cut down on the tin can thump, also made the interior look a helluva lot nicer.
I never did get to put dynamat or an equivalent on top of it to see how well that material would stick to it but using a roller I think would have given a good base to adhere to. Total cost was $16 for the ceramic spheres and $18 for the paint.....well worth it and I'll do it again on the next body.
I would think that the Elastomeric latex paint (such as Henry 287 would be a better paint for mixing these glass spheres. My understand is that the Elastomeric coverts sound waves to heat.. Is that not correct??
I've used the stuff twice now, 2 different cars, it works well. The really noticeable difference is long drives, very little heat in the floorboards. I use the same formula as Vince provided, (thanks Vince!) no problems after 2 years. I borrowed a undercoating sprayer from a friend, one gallon 2 coated everything I needed to spray on my coupe.
I've used the stuff twice now, 2 different cars, it works well. The really noticeable difference is long drives, very little heat in the floorboards. I use the same formula as Vince provided, (thanks Vince!) no problems after 2 years. I borrowed a undercoating sprayer from a friend, one gallon 2 coated everything I needed to spray on my coupe.
What base paint did you use? Also interested in the quantity of each size glass sphere if you don't mind.. I was going to mix up a batch this weekend..
What base paint did you use? Also interested in the quantity of each size glass sphere if you don't mind.. I was going to mix up a batch this weekend..
I used Dulux exterior house paint, bought a gallon of a messed up color for 8 bucks. Mixed a batch according to Vinces (302 Z28) instructions, I believe it is in the knowledge base, Here is a quote:
A gallon bag of the spheres cost about $6.00. You can see the potential cost savings here. A one gallon pail of exterior latex house paint, add some Micro Balloons to it and you basically have the same thing as Lizard Skin or Cool-Car for a mere fraction of the price. A 2 gallon pail of Lizard Skin is about $160
I believe the price is about 8 bucks for the micro-spheres now. Do a google search, I get mine from an ebay supplier. A mixed gallon will go a long way!
I used Dulux exterior house paint, bought a gallon of a messed up color for 8 bucks. Mixed a batch according to Vinces (302 Z28) instructions, I believe it is in the knowledge base, Here is a quote:
A gallon bag of the spheres cost about $6.00. You can see the potential cost savings here. A one gallon pail of exterior latex house paint, add some Micro Balloons to it and you basically have the same thing as Lizard Skin or Cool-Car for a mere fraction of the price. A 2 gallon pail of Lizard Skin is about $160
I believe the price is about 8 bucks for the micro-spheres now. Do a google search, I get mine from an ebay supplier. A mixed gallon will go a long way!
No you get a little over a gallon (due to displacement) of a consistancy not unlike pancake batter. You can make it thinner if you desire by adding water.....to a water based paint of course.
Sorry was outside for a while.......yep I mixed my paint and micro balloons in a 2 gal. bucket. Wear a good respirator (very important) and pour about a third of the balloons in and mix VERY GENTLY with a paint stick, NO electric mixer cuzz the stuff will blow everywhere, it's like talcum powder. Keep pouring and mixing till you get the consistency you want or use the entire gal of micro balloons.
Sorry was outside for a while.......yep I mixed my paint and micro balloons in a 2 gal. bucket. Wear a good respirator (very important) and pour about a third of the balloons in and mix VERY GENTLY with a paint stick, NO electric mixer cuzz the stuff will blow everywhere, it's like talcum powder. Keep pouring and mixing till you get the consistency you want or use the entire gal of micro balloons.
Any of you try the elastomeric paint's? I have read where the elastomeric component converts sound to heat and that it worked best.. I am also considering adding ceramic.. thoughts??? looking at the many pages, seems that the mixture outlined works well, but seems Spectrum or Lizard Skin has "other stuff" in it. Thoughts on that??
Don't know anything about the elastomeric paint, I really don't care for the idea of changing sound wave to heat...if thats what it does. The hot rods get hot enough as it is.....Dunno! The orig. "302 Z-28" formula worked out for a number of members who tried it and I sold the body before it was on the road. Give your concoction a try and see how you like it, can't hurt and it might be a better deal.
Any of you try the elastomeric paint's? I have read where the elastomeric component converts sound to heat and that it worked best.. I am also considering adding ceramic.. thoughts??? looking at the many pages, seems that the mixture outlined works well, but seems Spectrum or Lizard Skin has "other stuff" in it. Thoughts on that??
That would not be a problem, as I stated earlier in the thread we in the radio control hobby routinely mix the micro spheres with epoxy and polyester resin. The spheres are phenolic the only thing that can damage them is aggressive mixing which can crush them. They can be mixed with any kind of coating.
o.k. I may try this with an automotive paint, but if they can be crushed, doesn't that affect the use under your feet?
and if so. wouldn't them getting chushed. open up the paint to failure.. ?
nice thread, just can't see using house paint.. in a car..
o.k. I may try this with an automotive paint, but if they can be crushed, doesn't that affect the use under your feet?
and if so. wouldn't them getting crushed. open up the paint to failure.. ?
nice thread, just can't see using house paint.. in a car..
After I finished all my metal work on the floor; replacing metal, welding etc (or so I thought); I coated all metal inside and out with an epoxy primer. Then applied the sphers and latex to the inside of the cab with brushes, rollers, using whatever I had. I use exterior latex paint as the binder. It works for years on my exterior house and trim it ought to work on the inside of my cab where I am expecting little or no water. I had some left over Ford blue impliment enamel which I painted over part of my work. It does seal the latex but I'm not sure it's necessary. Right now it's just an experiment.
No doubt other binders will work as well perhaps better. I started with the latex and stayed with it. I am pleased with the thickness of my application as I believe that provides effeciency. It withstands heat. I scorched it with my plasma cutter only right where I was cutting, even the epoxy primer disappeared with that treatment.
It's a hobby, have fun!
Heartbeat
M5.....I'll try to answer the question with my reasoning....for what that's worth. These micro baloons or sphere's are indeed micro, like I said in an earlier post this stuff is like talcom powder. You have to be extremely careful when you pour it and mix it or it will blow all over the place....hense the respirator.
It's not necessary to put it on the floor when you will lay down dynamat or equivalent and then carpet padding and carpet.......but it won't hurt it either. Once the mixture dries it's just as hard as any paint surface and you won't burst the bubble so to speak by stepping on it. Really no need to use automotive paint on the inside of the car, a good quality exterior latex house paint works very well.
Here's a few pics of my old glass body that I used this system on, my new body will get the same exact treatment.
These micro balloons are about as fine as talcum powder - and a very good reason to wear at least a dust mask when you open the shipping plastic bag and pour into your paint. Probably somewhere in the first few pages of this thread you may see my car done with them as well - but I no longer can find the photos in my files. Now, do they work - heck, I don't know, but the floor of my car is well insulated otherwise and this was just some more, just in case
Thanks to the both of you for the reply.
I am probably going to put it all over the interior of my truck. (including roof)
I also considered putting it under the cab.. (wondered if it might keep out heat from tranny, and exhaust)
These Atlanta summers get hot, and I plan on making some long trips. The cooler the better.
How many square feet did you guys say a gallon would cover... did you put on more than one coat. I had planned on rolling it on.
This is something I can do in between my other projects, so I think I'll see about getting some of this stuff ASAP.
My plan is to put this on, and then the fake dynamat over that. Should make a big difference
I am making a 46 Studebaker pickup and extended the cab 18".
THANKS again. I just joined so I can see where this forum will help me a lot.
If you buy a gallon of these spheres, then mix them into a gallon of latex house paint, you should be able to have more then enough to put a full two coats on. Get a Home Depot 5 gallon 'Homer Bucket' or similar to do your mixing and be prepared to spend a while folding the two together. I found that two and now pretty heavy coats took a long time to fully dry
If I can do the both pretty cheap... that's cool.
I was hoping maybe the coating would help with the heat,.. and the dynamat for the sound. ?? I am new to this so I'm not sure how it all works.
I hear ya bout wearing the mast. I do some sandblasting so I have a respirator.
I "assume" once you get it poured into the paint an mixed, a respirator won't be necessary??
Where did you folks say you got the glassbeads.
As far as paint if just 'any' good exterior paint will work, I thought I'd check at Home Depot or Lowes and buy a gallon of "oops" paint that they mismatched for about $10
You can also do a Google using Micro Spheres as you search phrase
I used Lowe's best exterior latex - not getting any cheaper either, but I recently bought a nice 'oops' gray at $2.50 for a quart which was perfect for what I needed for a home workshop project
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