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  #166 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2008, 12:48 PM
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Sprayed the Lizard Skin ... both the heat and the sound types ... goes on pretty easy and flows out NICE ... did the 3W doors ... and the inside of the 32 firewall.

Even looks OK ...
Cleans up ( the gun ) with water ...

All in all ... I like it.

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  #167 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2008, 03:21 PM
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Chad
Just mix it to the consistency of heavy cream. Thick enough to hang on vertical surfaces, but thin enough to spray or apply with a brush or roller. The % proportions are not that critical. The vinyl foam sounds like a good product, but I do not have any experience with it.

Vince
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  #168 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2008, 10:40 PM
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I have never read 12 pages of any post on here before this one. Bravo, these sort of homegrown ideas are just the sort of thing keeps low budget hotrodders like myself excited about the sport! It's great to know that if I magically ended up with a few extra grand that I could do all these amazing things with off the shelf products, but it's even better to know that with basically pocket change I can get something that is even close, and better yet... i get to make it myself . Very cool, and thank you to everyone who has added to this discussion.

You know, this whole thing sort of makes you wonder just where the idea for Lizard Skin came from... I'm glad that you, Vince, decided to share this little gem!!!

Thanks again and know that when it comes interior time I'll be mixing up some "skin" for myself!!!

hotrod
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  #169 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2008, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302 Z28
Chad
Just mix it to the consistency of heavy cream. Thick enough to hang on vertical surfaces, but thin enough to spray or apply with a brush or roller. The % proportions are not that critical. The vinyl foam sounds like a good product, but I do not have any experience with it.

Vince

Vince:

I ended up mixing 2 gallon bags of micro ballons to the 1 gallon of elastometric roof coating, along with just a touch of water to get it uniform. I may have added just a touch to much water as I could pour the mixture out of the 5 gallon bucket I mixed it in.? Not sure.

I applied all coats with a 4" brush. I have the car up on jack stands so I put a dual halogen construction light underneath where the mufflers would be about 12" below the floor pan. Basically right under where the rear seat would sit. After the first coat dried I turned the light on and recorded the inside and bottom temperature at 10, 20 and 30 minutes. The results were consistent at each point. I checked them with a laser temp gun from Sears. The inside temperature was only 5 degrees cooler than the bottom? So I'm not sure if my method of testing is a fair one? I have since applied another 3-4 coats, for a total of 5-6 coats, lost count. I plan on checking it once more before installing the carpet. If anyone has a better method to check the real difference let me know and I'll give it a shot.

Thanks,
Chad

Last edited by 71'Nova 383; 05-29-2008 at 07:39 AM. Reason: added info
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  #170 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2008, 08:00 AM
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I never tried mixing the micro balloons in with elastomeric roof coating which already has some ingrediants in it. I don't know what if anything that would cause in the way of a heat barrier. I would't think it would affect it negatively. What were the temps you were recording?

Vince
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  #171 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2008, 08:11 AM
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Don't many of the elastometric coatings have ground aluminum for a reflector AND binder - which might at least partially negate the effect of the micro ballons. I know that the stuff I used to use on my previous travel trailers had aluminum in it. That stuff is fine for reflectivity but once the reflective particles are covered, say with another substance, they will become heat CONDUCTORS

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  #172 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2008, 08:40 AM
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Temps

Recorded temps:

At 10 minutes: 117 inside, 120 on the bottom
At 20 minutes: 120 inside, 125 on the bottom
At 30 mintues: 123 inside, 127 on the bottom

The temp in my garage was 70 degrees. I'm not sure if the direct light pointing to the bottom of the floor is the problem? I thought it was a good comparable to having the mufflers in place but maybe I'm wrong.

The microballons I would think act just like small air bubbles in foam insulation. The elastomeric coating is like a rubbery coating that gets most it's reflective properties from being bright white. Not sure about the aluminum flakes. It cools down fast once you turn the light off.

I'm planning on installing the foam insulation I bought at least above the mufflers anyways.

I was able to find the 3M Spray adhesive for high temps, part #08090 Super Trim Adhesive from my local Napa store.

Last edited by 71'Nova 383; 05-29-2008 at 07:49 AM. Reason: updated info
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  #173 (permalink)  
Old 05-29-2008, 07:36 AM
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Final Temps after 5-6 Coats

Well I checked it last night.

The results after 5-6 coats:

At 10 minutes: 125 inside, 135 on the bottom
At 20 minutes: 133 inside, 143 on the bottom
At 30 mintues: 135 inside, 145 on the bottom

The results after 1 coat:

At 10 minutes: 117 inside, 120 on the bottom
At 20 minutes: 120 inside, 125 on the bottom
At 30 mintues: 123 inside, 127 on the bottom

The results with no coating:

At 10 minutes: 105 inside, 118 on the bottom
At 20 minutes: 122 inside, 128 on the bottom
At 30 mintues: 127 inside, 128 on the bottom




Conclusion:

Not sure!? The spread did increase to 10 degrees over the 5 degree difference when there was only 1 coat on. The weird thing is that the temperature comes up faster with every coat added than it did when the floor was just bare metal. I'm not sure if this is because the metal was dissipating the heat faster? One could come to the conclusion that although the temps are higher on the surface the heat transfer is less inside the cabin and stopped in the coating? Again my temps are of the surface not of the actual cabin temp.

One reason that the over all temps are higher than in the beginning is because one of the bulbs in my light blew out and when I replaced it the light was much brighter. But that still wouldn't change the spread results.

It definitely helped make the floor more solid sounding. So at this point unfortunately everyone will have to draw his or her own conclusion.

Even though the results may not appear to be positive, I think the heat transfer to the inside of the passenger compartment will be less. It will definitely help with sound control from the exhaust. Once I add the vinyl foam I'll check it one last time.

Thanks for the help and great idea Vince.

Last edited by 71'Nova 383; 05-29-2008 at 07:47 AM.
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  #174 (permalink)  
Old 05-29-2008, 09:19 AM
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alt to lizard skin........

Hi,check my post # 159.for info. i even used my buddies non contact infra red gun with the same results. i dont know how you would check the difference between inside and bottom of car floor.unless the inside of the car was heated,and bottom had the alt to lizard skin on it.
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  #175 (permalink)  
Old 05-29-2008, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatbob2
Hi,check my post # 159.for info. i even used my buddies non contact infra red gun with the same results. i dont know how you would check the difference between inside and bottom of car floor.unless the inside of the car was heated,and bottom had the alt to lizard skin on it.

Not sure I follow you when you say you got the same results? My difference in tempertures was only 10 degrees? You checked yours after you installed the bubble wrap, correct?

I'm hoping the foam will make a huge difference. My car is a factory A/C car so I'm ok either way. Just want to make it cool easier and lessen the sound from the road and exhaust.
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  #176 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2008, 08:16 AM
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bubble wrap.......

HI,yes,i measured the temperature after applying the bubble wrap. BUT,the wrap is only about 3/16 in thick. im sure the b. wrap made a difference,but i dont think it would have been much. im going to put a piece of b wrap in the sun today and measure temp,inside and outside,i will post results.
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  #177 (permalink)  
Old 06-04-2008, 09:08 AM
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Final Results!

Well I've completed my floor and here it is.

Alt. Lizard Skin Results, see post #173

I installed the self-adhesive Foam with foil backing which I purchased from HomeDepot in the ductwork section, $15 a roll and I used 2.5 rolls, www.frostking.com/ductinsulation.php. See picture below. It's a closed cell Vinyl foam, which means it won't absorb water. Has an R-3 rating and is rated up to 190 degrees. Nice thing about this is it's only 12" wide so it's very easy to install vrs a big sheet. I also bought a roll of foil tape for the seams. I didn't use the 3M spray adhesive because it's under the carpet so it's not going anywhere. You would need to use the spray adhesive though if you were going to apply the foam to a vertical or overhead application. If for some reason I need to remove it down the road it's not going to be a sticky mess.

Here's the kick in the as~, the Temp Gun wouldn't read the temperature correctly once I had the foil backed insulation installed! I'm so PO'd. Must have something to do with the reflectiveness of the foil. I did however try to record the temps on the front bracket that holds the rear seat bottom in.

The final results:

At 10 minutes: 78 inside, 140 on the bottom
At 20 minutes: 85 inside, 155 on the bottom
At 30 minutes: 100 inside, 160 on the bottom

I could place my hand on the foil and it felt lukewarm so I feel the readings I got of the bracket were pretty close.

Conclusion:
I think the Foam made a huge difference, it's cheap, easy to install, and can be easily removed. The Lizard Skin seems like a good idea Vince but the temperature results speak for themselves in post #173, ?

I'm going to paint the foil in the back and try getting the temp readings one more time. If I get them I will update this post soon.

Chad
Alt Lizard Skin:


Foam Insulation:


Foam Insulation:


Completed Floor:

Last edited by 71'Nova 383; 06-04-2008 at 10:18 AM. Reason: added info
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  #178 (permalink)  
Old 06-04-2008, 09:29 AM
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Wouldn't you want to put the foil side down, so heat is reflected downward? I don't know, I'm just asking.
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  #179 (permalink)  
Old 06-04-2008, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwt27ta6
Well, after re-considering rubber undercoating mixed with microspheres, the Peel N Seal (xnks to above advice), reviewing http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/which/, mulling over products to stop the normal rusting underneath the RV, an inexpensive way of adding heat deflection, & not wanting a lot of prep work, I came across what I believe to be the best solution for @ least my needs:

http://www.metalshield.com/index.html by Hy-Tech Thermal Solutions.

It seems to be an advanced under-coating for vehicles that is a 1 step solution to all the above & can even be sprayed & doesn't require a lot of prep work. Now, note a partial description:

A Rust preventive, heat insulating, sound deadening coating containing a blend of space age ceramic insulating microspheres and an industry standard setting anti-corrosion resin.
By combining the thermal heat blocking and soundproofing properties of Hy-Tech insulating ceramic microspheres, and a time tested rust preventative resin you can now not only protect your Auto, Farm equipment, RV, Industrial Storage Tanks etc from rust but also gain the additional soundproofing and heat resisting properties of Insulating Ceramic Microspheres, the NASA developed technology for blocking extremely high heat in spacecraft.
The rust preventative resin contains a dispersion of an inorganic-organic complex, oxidized petroleum and microcystalline wax in solvent.
The complex compound is very polar and forms excellent bonds with ferrous and non-ferrous metals. Metal Shield also shows excellent electrical resistivity and very low moisture vapor transmission rates.

Q: Can Metal Shield be sprayed?
A: Yes, being Thixotropic, Metal Shield sprays evenly at high and low temperatures with little change in low air pressures at the tip. Using Airless spray we recommend .017 - .019 tips size and pump pressures of 1300-1500 psi. conventional spray equipment use 10-15 psi fluid pressure and 50-60 SPI atomizing pressure.

Q: Do I have to remove All existing rust prior to applying?
A: No, Metal Shield is intended for use as a field applied maintenance coating and does not require complete removal of rust or previously applied lead based coatings on bridges and other steel surfaces.


I'm sure it isn't perfect, but it is exactly what I wanted in an affordable ($87/gal including hazmat & shipping charges) 1 step spray on process, that can even be repeated for increased performance! I'll be returning the Peel N Seal ($30), normal rubber undercoating ($40) & 1 of the 2 Spray guns I bought for this project; and I won't have to buy separate rust converter nor any aluminum faced matting & won't have to double my efforts for installation of it.

For me, a win, win solution!!


Well I also decided that I would use this material as a base for the underside of my pick up. The cost was reasonable but the shipping to Az. was 35.00 which made it maybe not such a good deal. Now I am wondering if I can tint this Aluminum color, maybe just put some shootz over it and call it good!
With a gallon I guess I can do the inside of the cab also and slow the heat transfer some.
I have noticed here in the desert that when the ambient is 100+ and the outside of the truck (black) is reaching 140+ it doesn't matter what is in the inside for insulation the heat transfer after sitting in the sun is damn HOT, and testing with a IR gun EVERYTHING is reading 140*!!
I guess after the A/C cools things down to a respectful temp all of the insulation does keep the cool inside, and not have to work so hard.
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  #180 (permalink)  
Old 06-04-2008, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTwoLakes
Wouldn't you want to put the foil side down, so heat is reflected downward? I don't know, I'm just asking.

This is the way they manufacture it so I would say no. The adhesive is on the bottom side. Basically the reflective material could go on either side I believe because the foam just acts a air pocket which is where you gain your R-3 insulating factor from.
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