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alternative to Lizard Skin

484K views 341 replies 84 participants last post by  39 master 
#1 ·
Since RB's Obsolete had the Cool-Car ceramic insulation on backorder and did not inform me after 3 weeks of waiting on it I have done some research. Seems all the high priced ceramic paint on insulating materials aka Lizard Skin, Cool-Car and such are a simple mixture of an exterior latex paint with ceramic micro spheres added to it. Having been a radio control aircraft enthusiast I have used ceramic spheres mixed with epoxy to form various fillets on model aircraft. I would buy these ceramic spheres (Micro Balloons is what they are called) in bulk from either Aircraft Spruce or Wicks Aircraft Supply. A gallon bag of the spheres cost about $6.00. You can see the potential cost savings here. A one gallon pail of exterior latex house paint, add some Micro Balloons to it and you basically have the same thing as Lizard Skin or Cool-Car for a mere fraction of the price. A 2 gallon pail of Lizard Skin is about $160 :pain:

Vince
 
#202 ·
Lizard Skin is just NOT that expensive ... IMHO
Rather than mess around and try to find something that might be as good ( for maybe half the money ;) ) I went ahead and bought LIZARD SKIN.

I had already sprayed the back side of the door skin with Lizard Skin before installing the DynaMat ... but the door panel area was not up to my liking. Old paint and new paint just did not look right ( even if only myself and the upholstery man would see it ) .



So I taped up the panel and sprayed it with Lizard Skin also.





No runs in the Lizard Skin on the door area but it sure will run on the slick masking paper.

One container of the Lizard Skin covered my firewall, the floor and both the quarter panels. Also the inner door skins and the outer panel skins. The roof also. Two light coats ... and I had a small amount left.

I bought the 2 gallon container ... for $135 @ Nats South NSRA Rod Run ... and I got the special applicator gun also for $120. So for $255 .. I had everything to do the job.

IMHO ... if you are getting your homemade brew concoction to spray thru a regular gun ... it is way too thin and most likely not do what you want it to.
 
#204 ·
i read almost every page of this, fweew!!!

i think alot of you have good ideas, but it one of those old sayings "a dime chasing a dollar". i am not trying to persuade anybody, and i'm the first person to try to save a buck. everybody who used lizzardskin or that coolcar stuff sais it works awsome, and everytime i try to cut a corner it bites me in the ***. i found a person that sells lizzardskin he is on e-bay, i baught a kit today. 4 gallons of the ceramic lizzardskin and a deluxe spray gun kit with it, for $325.00. thats less than what lizardskin told me it cost, and free ups ground!!! you can't beat that with a stick! :spank: everybody else wants $359.00 +shipping! just food for thaught, when you add those microspheres to latex or all those other paints, it might keep it cooler but won't it melt or catch on fire if it gets hot? i was just going to use roll on bedliner but, i thaught i'd use this stuff on the ceiling under the headliner on the floor and firewall and in trunk. the gentleman told me i won't need to use any sound deatening material this stuff would be more than enough.
 
#205 ·
I am still up in the air about this stuff too. I have a 68 Lincoln Continental that I just bought new carpet for and already stripped the interior. I need one floor pan patch and plan to POR-15 the entire floor and thought about throwing some of these micro-spheres in them and and use Dynamat and jute matting under the carpet for extra sound deadening and unsulating. Has ANYONE here done the POR-15 with ceramic micro spheres yet? Also are the Wicks Micro Balloons ceramic or the cheap foam type of balloons?
Thanks for any info guys. I am ready to get started on this whole deal next weekend!
 
#206 ·
I did the por 15 on areas of the floors of my coupe, following the directions, of course. Surface rust that I didn't want to get any worse while I was doing other things on the car. I used the home made lizard skin that Vince provided me the formula, latex paint and the micro spheres, it's been sitting almost a year, no other paints applied, everything is tight. So my answer would be yes, it can be done.
 
#207 ·
krazeyone said:
i think alot of you have good ideas, but it one of those old sayings "a dime chasing a dollar". i am not trying to persuade anybody, and i'm the first person to try to save a buck. everybody who used lizzardskin or that coolcar stuff sais it works awsome
Please read the intro to the thread, I made it perfectly clear that I had no problems with the way LizardSkin or Cool Car works, in fact they are top notch products just over priced. Reverse engineer these products and they can be duplicated for much less. After all they were not developed for auto use, and only found their way into the market because someone noticed they would also work great on cars.

Lots of people have read this thread and quite a few have tried it. I have not seen anyone regret using the alternative.

Vince
 
#208 ·
Since this thread got dredged up I might as well ask the question I was going to ask.

My car is all 'glass so I need a paint that will adhere to this easily. Because of the roof bows and other interior supports
it will be tough to really sand or scuff all the surfaces I need to cover. Plus the wiring and all the other stuff is already installed. I'll have to brush whatever paint is used. I don't think the house paint will stick very well to the interior fiberglass. I can get some standard automotive primer possibly something used with the urethane paints and just mix it really well with the micro baloons. I already have a big tube of them.

Do you think this will work ok??

I'm really interested in noise reduction but radiated heat reduction will be a plus.
 
#209 ·
Lizard Skin does it do anything?

I believe I have read all of this post a couple times, all the other posts on Lizard Skin and the Wiki ceramic. I still don't know if the micro balloons really do anything.

Chad (71 Nova'383) tested LS alternative (post 169, 172, 173, 179) and found that by itself it provided very little reduction of temperature inside the vehicle. He reports that it did provide some sound deadening, but so does rubberized undercoat , bed liner and possibly thick paint without micro balloons.

Shine says it works, but he still uses foam over it and works with fiberglass vehicles. Would the same foam and undercoat or bed liner work just as well?

Intuitively, most of us would say anything that is 8-20 mils think would not be much of a temperature barrier. Hy-Tech says micro balloon technology is used on the shuttle heat shields, but we think they are at least 1 inch thick. If the OEM's could just spray on micro balloons with thick paint and leave out all the sound deadening and insulating materials, wouldn't it be cheaper and lighter? Why aren't they using it or are they?

My real question is, does anyone have any real world evidence that Lizard Skin, Metal Shield or any of the micro balloon alternatives actually make a difference that is worth the trouble and the additional cost?

Thanks,
Dan
 
#210 ·
DJ3100 said:
My real question is, does anyone have any real world evidence that Lizard Skin, Metal Shield or any of the micro balloon alternatives actually make a difference that is worth the trouble and the additional cost?

Thanks,
Dan
I never drove my 3W much ... before installing the Lizard Skin ... ;) ( One trip to Charlotte NC GoodGuys event in 2007 ... about 275 miles round trip ). That was with the Lizard Skin sprayed and no DynaMat. Since then, I have installed a good bit of DynaMat also :cool: . But finished with the upholstery, my little coupe is as quiet and tight as my wife's new Cadillac DTS. The Vintage Air will freeze you OUT ... ( and I live in the Hot, Humid South ) . The heater can make you sweat :) . I contribute this to the Lizard Skin and DynaMat. I will never do another car without the Lizard Skin and DynaMat. :thumbup:



You can see the construction of the 32 3W in my project journal here ...

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/journal.php?action=view&journalid=3880&page=1&reverse=1
 
#211 ·
( One trip to Charlotte NC GoodGuys event in 2007 ... about 275 miles round trip ). That was with the Lizard Skin sprayed and no DynaMat
Deuce,

Great project and great results!

Does the above mean that the after the 275 mile trip with just LS, you felt that it needed more insulation and sound deadener, so you added the DynaMat?

Did you also use jute or other underlayment (in addition to DynaMat) under the carpet?

Thanks for the info.
 
#212 ·
Lizard skin

We drove our 28 almost a year before we did the glass and interior. during that time we added the home made micro sphere/latex coating. The difference was amazing. Added fat mat during interior stage, because it needed it. Very quiet now for a hot rod.
Was it absolutely necessary? Would dynamat work as well without it? How much did it help? Can't say. But for the cheap price of the home brew (around $25 a gallon as I recall) and fat mat being half price of dyna mat, this is exactly what I wanted. Next car will get the same deal.
 
#214 ·
any updates

For those of you who used the various forms of Alternative solutions to Lizardskin,do you have any updates as to the usefullness,durability,ect of the alternatives that were discussed and tried on the different cars? I am getting ready to work on my 55 Chevy Beauville wagon and have read through the entire thread. I have a couple of pails of Lizardskin coming through the mail as I type and would like to figure out as to whether I am going to use it on my 55 or the 52 Chevy 3100 AD truck I am just about finished with.
I am sorry to use this for my 1st post but after reading through the whole thread of 15 pgs,I couldn't resist asking. Thanks Jim
 
#215 ·
Jim, "funny you should ask" ...as they say. Sorry I don't have any decibel worthy info but I just did the interior of my f'glass '32 body 2 days ago. I had already purchased 2 bags of the micro spheres from Wicks a couple of years ago.
I bought a gallon of Home Depot exterior latex paint and had it tinted a light gray, poured about 3/4 into a big pail and CAREFULLY added 1 bag of spheres a little at a time while a stirred (wearing a respirator) with a paint stick. I finally came up with a smooth concoction resembling something like an ugly cake batter. I used a 2" and 4" brush to get behind the wood and steel tubing inner structure but then used a 6" roller for the ceiling and floor.

I applied 3 coats, letting it dry about 30 mins. in-between. It took me about 4 hours and if nothing else it sure looks a lot nicer. The "knock" test on the outside gives a dull thud instead of the echoing clank (for lack of a better adjective). VERY happy with outcome, for my time and about $40 I will do it again on the next body. good luck with your project....Dave
 
#216 ·
by the time this thread got started I was already into assembly and especially the dash. I thought about the alternative that '302..' came up with a while back but I was too far along to do much about it. I did try a cursory test of water based paint on the inside of the car but it didn't stick very well. Further testing of some other paints aswell also didn't work very well. I think there was some mold release or wax on the body that I really did not get off. Along the way I did a bit of glass work and it too did not stick very well so my suspicions are confirmed.

I did get some of the microballons and used them on a big model airplane.

I've added some double coated insulation and carpet that have been pretty effective so far. I'm sure that the micro balloon stuff will also help.

Nice thought on the safety aspect of using the microballoons. This is very important.

Let us know how everything works out.
 
#217 ·
Performance updates

After three years the $10 microballoon and $10 latex barn paint insulation is performing admirably in my car.

3M Super 77 spray adhesive failed to hold the Reflectix "bubble wrap" insulation. Luckily I only used it in one door before switching to Westech WT-HS13

I watched a NatGeo episode of Ultimate Factories and learned that Rolls Royce automobiles use aluminum foil covered bitumen (asphalt) for sound deadening. I am quite pleased that my low buck '55 Chevy uses the same thing (Peel N Seal)
 
#218 ·
I have Peel-N-Seal, three layers of padding- carpet on all metal areas of the floor and P&S inside the doors and on the headliner. Everything works as it is supposed to, BUT guess what when it is 107* outside and the Black truck has set in the sun (windows down) for a few hours, the inside cab temp is 125*+ It takes about 7 to 10 miles for the A/C to bring the metal in the cab back down to a comfortable limit, with the air blowing 38-40* out of the vents.

No doubt everything is working as expected but it is still HOT, but it is a dry heat !!!

I am just glad I did not spend the big bucks on the name brand material!!
What I notice the most is at highway speeds 70mph is all the wind noise but I like the A/C so we must close the windows closed and all this Insulation does not do much for the wind noise, guess can't have it all with a 50+ year old truck !!
 
#219 ·
solidaxel reminded me that I forgot to mention an important performance improvement. I have a couple of friend's who drive '56 Chevies. The interior noise level in their uninsulated shoeboxes is HUGE compared to my car. The insulating and sound deadening is the biggest "bang for the buck" deal on the car.

I do get a little wind whistle from the vent windows, but 50 year old cars are definitely a bit "tighter" than trucks of the same vintage. ;)
 
#221 ·
Wicks "Glass" balloons vs. Hy-tech ceramic microspheres

I've been reading this thread for about an hour. I'm at work so it's not cool but I'm addicted and can't quit.

I went to Wicks and Hy-tech and it appears that there are two different products. Wicks sells Glass balloons, Hy-tech sells ceramic Microspheres. It would seem to me that the ceramic material would be a better insulator for heat as used in the space shuttle.

Am I missing something?

I don't have time to read all 15 pages of posts right now, I'd like to keep my job, but has anyone mixed Hy-tech's product with car paint or primer? I'd feel better painting that on my car than water based latex.

Excellent thread and thanks to everyone who has taken their time to contribute.
 
#223 ·
RE; the glass beads, we use three different types between, epoxy and 2K primers all different blends, there are of course different strengths, like Zircona, ceramic and plastic and glass and none of those issues are important, with what you bench chemists are trying to do here.

I would look for the smallest size, as I think that would help the application you are using it for as far as insulation and strength, strength not of real importance here, and use more of the small instead of less of the larger size.

The perfect formula might be a 50% mix of large and small.

I'm not sure what is available size wise from the places you are talking about but these come in all different sizes from the manufacturers that make these Nano items.
 
#224 ·
You are correct Barry. In the aircraft homebuilder realm the micro balloons are used as filler only to make fillets and such and have no strength value. A side benefit of using them is their insulating properties and as you have pointed out regardless of what they are made of it is the trapped air within the balloon that is the insulating property.

Vince
 
#225 ·
Vince is right, the air is the key.

For maximum value for heat or sound, the trick would be mixing of sizes so that here is as little as air as possible BETWEEN the beads, you want all the air inside the beads.

You could use a cheap microscope to do this and play with the mixture, like 50% smallest, 25% medium and 25% large, mix them up and adjust volume to make the mixture as tight as possible.

Just a thought.

Need help, if someone has different sizes, all I would need is an ounce of each and we have the electronic microscopes that would allow me to give you a rough Idea on percentages you might want.
 
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