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-   -   alternative to Lizard Skin (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/alternative-lizard-skin-103610.html)

302 Z28 12-01-2006 08:19 AM

alternative to Lizard Skin
 
Since RB's Obsolete had the Cool-Car ceramic insulation on backorder and did not inform me after 3 weeks of waiting on it I have done some research. Seems all the high priced ceramic paint on insulating materials aka Lizard Skin, Cool-Car and such are a simple mixture of an exterior latex paint with ceramic micro spheres added to it. Having been a radio control aircraft enthusiast I have used ceramic spheres mixed with epoxy to form various fillets on model aircraft. I would buy these ceramic spheres (Micro Balloons is what they are called) in bulk from either Aircraft Spruce or Wicks Aircraft Supply. A gallon bag of the spheres cost about $6.00. You can see the potential cost savings here. A one gallon pail of exterior latex house paint, add some Micro Balloons to it and you basically have the same thing as Lizard Skin or Cool-Car for a mere fraction of the price. A 2 gallon pail of Lizard Skin is about $160 :pain:

Vince

Heartbeat 12-01-2006 09:46 AM

Vince,
A couple of Questions: 1. Would you use the whole gallon of micro spheres in the gal of latex? 2. What would be your suggestion of application method? I see that RB's would like to sell an $80 gun for application of CoolCar.
Thanks,
Heartbeat

302 Z28 12-01-2006 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heartbeat
Vince,
A couple of Questions: 1. Would you use the whole gallon of micro spheres in the gal of latex? 2. What would be your suggestion of application method? I see that RB's would like to sell an $80 gun for application of CoolCar.
Thanks,
Heartbeat

Will have to play with the amount to add to a gallon of exterior latex. That will depend on what application method I choose to use (brush, roller, or spray). To get it thin enough to spray may require several coats. I am thinking a gallon bag of Micro Balloons will be enough for three or more gallons of paint. The Gun advertised on RB's site is basically an undercoating gun that you can buy from Harbor Freight for less than $15.

30desoto 12-01-2006 02:47 PM

Vince

I have a question about your idea on micro ballons, if you mix with latex paint would it adhere good to the bottom of the car or would it be advisable to only use it on the inside of the vehicle? It seems like latex would not be a very good mix, I am no expert by a long shot but how would it hold up to heat say in the roof area, would there be any special prep on the body before painting it on or rolling? Would this mixture be close to the same as the lizard skin or coolcar? If it is that easy to produce why in the world would they charge so much for the stuff?

Sorry to ask all these questions, but your idea sounds great and I may do this when the time comes myself. :thumbup:

30dee

302 Z28 12-01-2006 03:58 PM

I have used exterior latex before to paint a radio control airplane. This was a scale WWII P47 with a wing span of 86 inches. The entire aircraft was polyester fiberglass primed with automotive primer. I went with flat latex because it more closely approximated the paint job that was on the planes of that time period and the color match was easy with the mixing at the local stores, This P47 was powered by a 2 stroke gasoline engine of 62cc. The finish was extremely durable holding up exceptionally well to the gasoline. I did this following an article in a popular radio control magazine.

Now with the Lizard Skin: At the Louisville NSRA Nationals I saw a demo of Lizard Skin. When I saw it it looked like thickly applied paint. It did not have a smooth surface, it actually looked like well...like Lizard Skin. Hence the name I assume. In order to get it sprayed with enough film build it is going to have to be applied thick. The Lizard Skin guy said it could be applied either on the outside of the bottom or on the inside. Since the bottom of my 34 is painted I will be applying my mixture to the entire inside floor. roof, trunk, doors, and firewall. The instruction for applying Lizard Skin were no different than what you would see for applying any kind of paint. Free of dirt, debris, oil and grease. I saw the gun he was selling and it was nothing more than a under coating gun, but with a smaller tip. The tip was about 1/4" compared to the 3/8" of an under coat gun. It was a suction feed gun that has a tube you put down into the material. Personally I would not want it on the outside of my car because of how it looks. On the inside ever thing is going to be covered by upholstery so it will not be seen. I have the utmost confidence that the exterior latex will adhere extremely well to the underside of the roof and will hold up very well also.

I will take some pics of the process and the results and post them here.

Here is a picure of the P47 that was painted witth latex house paint. That photo is about 5 years old and the plane still looks good, no I have not crashed it :)
http://hotrodders.com/gallery/data/5...m/DSC00104.JPG

Vince

Irelands child 12-01-2006 04:21 PM

Vince - Ya got me thinking now. I had completely thrown out the idea of using ceramic insulation due to the cost and have used some foil backed stuff from Juliano's inside and on the floor and firewall - but this has rekindled my interest. Nice thing about this concoction is you can use whatever color you want, and I may consider the underside of the floorboards since I have yet to prime or paint them (they will be epoxyed regardless). Since I've been long away from model airplanes have no idea where to buy micro-ballon spheres. Do you have a good source? Keep us up to date.

How are you making out with the 1/4" Volara foam? The small piece of 3/8" neoprene that I got with my Volara makes a LOT good sanding blocks.

Dave

Dave

Centerline 12-01-2006 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 302/Z28
I have used exterior latex before to paint a radio control airplane. This was a scale WWII P47 with a wing span of 86 inches. The entire aircraft was polyester fiberglass primed with automotive primer. I went with flat latex because it more closely approximated the paint job that was on the planes of that time period and the color match was easy with the mixing at the local stores, This P47 was powered by a 2 stroke gasoline engine of 62cc. The finish was extremely durable holding up exceptionally well to the gasoline. I did this following an article in a popular radio control magazine...........................Here is a picure of the P47 that was painted witth latex house paint. That photo is about 5 years old and the plane still looks good, no I have not crashed it :)
http://hotrodders.com/gallery/data/5...m/DSC00104.JPG

Vince

Didn't realize you were into RC Scale. I was the 1985 Scale Masters Championship head static judge. Been out of the hobby for several years but still working on my book which contains a selection of 5 view scale drawings for scratch builders. I've completed 75 aircraft and want to have a total of 100 before trying to find a publisher. Most are little known versions of popular aircraft and some are total odd balls. By the way, nice P-47.

30desoto 12-01-2006 06:16 PM

Vince

Thanks for the answer, and I agree with you on the undercarriage of my vehicle. I will be pleased to see pictures of the progress on your car, not that I haven't already, which is beautiful by the way!!!!! I wonder how many coats would give good coverage and sound proofing, and it would be fine put on with a brush or roller because it will be sight unseen under the upholstery.

Thanks again and keep up updated :thumbup:

30dee

302 Z28 12-01-2006 07:29 PM

30dee
Two coats should be sufficient, they are laid on fairly heavy. This evening I tried some using my sandblasting gun and it worked perfect.

Centerline
Been into R/C since I was about 19 years old. I think I was the first one to ever fly an R/C plane at Cam Rahn Bay AB, Vietnam :D

Dave
The 1/4" Volara foam has worked out fantastic, I even used it under my running boards. I tried spraying the Weldwood Formica glue but it would not do well so I just brushed it on.

I have been getting my Micro Balloons from Wicks Aircraft Supply . They have a nice online catalog, just look under composites.
http://hotrodders.com/gallery/data/5...m/DSC00876.JPG
This is my bag of Micro Balloons, it is not quite a gallon any longer. You have to be careful with this stuff as it is microscopic phenolic glass spheres and they are very light. It pours a lot like a liquid and unlike a powder. It will not clump as a powder will. It floats on the slightest breeze, so wear a dust mask when using them. I have not seen an MSDS sheet on it, but I would not want to find out what it could do to your lungs.
http://hotrodders.com/gallery/data/5...m/DSC00877.JPG
I am mixing up some Micro Balloons and a gallon of exterior latex house paint. I had the house paint tinted a very dark gray. I had to pour out almost half of the paint in order to add the Micro Balloons. It took the entire bag to get to the consistency I was looking for. You want it thin enough to spray with a large nozzle, but thick enough so that it does not sag on vertical surfaces as you build it up. As stated earlier the bag was not quite a full gallon as I had used some. I feel confident that a full one gallon bag of Micro Balloons and about 3/4 gallon of paint is just about right.

Edited note: Do not be temped to use a power mixer as it will shatter the micro spheres and diminish the insulating qualities.

Vince

solidaxel 12-01-2006 08:27 PM

Thanks for the info Z28, how well does it work when the inside of the cab is 130*

302 Z28 12-01-2006 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solidaxel
Thanks for the info Z28, how well does it work when the inside of the cab is 130*

Haven't applied it yet, hope to do it tomorrow.

Vince

302 Z28 12-05-2006 06:42 PM

FWIW
Some have expressed that maybe Lizard Skin is some magical formula specifically made for automotive use that justifies it's exorbitant price. People will believe what they want to believe and that is fine. For those that need a little more assurance that there is nothing magical about these hi tech ceramic coatings you can go online to Hy-Tech Thermal Solutions and look up product SC#1000. SC#1000 is 80% by volume microscopic glass spheres.

Hy-Tech Thermal Solutions is a NASA spin off company located in Melbourne Fla. SC#1000 is available for about $39 a gallon.

Vince

solidaxel 12-05-2006 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 302/Z28
FWIW
Some have expressed that maybe Lizard Skin is some magical formula specifically made for automotive use that justifies it's exorbitant price. People will believe what they want to believe and that is fine. For those that need a little more assurance that there is nothing magical about these hi tech ceramic coatings you can go online to Hy-Tech Thermal Solutions and look up product SC#1000.

Hy-Tech Thermal Solutions is a NASA spin off company located in Melbourne Fla. SC#1000 is available for about $39 a gallon.

Vince



Thanks Again !!

So Wicks sell some for $6.50 and these guys sell for 11.00 which is best or they both the same!!

302 Z28 12-05-2006 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solidaxel
Thanks Again !!

So Wicks sell some for $6.50 and these guys sell for 11.00 which is best or they both the same!!

Your welcome. $11? Make up your own mind, at 80% by volume per gallon you can buy two one gallon bags from Wicks, and one gallon of latex paint. Pour all of the paint into another can except 20%, then fill that with the glass spheres. Mix up another gallon and still have some latex left over. Or order two gallons from Hy-Tech at $39 a gallon pre mixed and ready to spray.

Vince

robs ss 12-05-2006 09:29 PM

Like that plane, I've looked at it three times allready, I'll have to quit that, or I'll be changing hobbies.

Rob

There are questions to be answered, and answers to be questioned"

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