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-   -   Another question about Black Paint. (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/another-question-about-black-paint-190373.html)

Mr.Bolt-on 01-08-2011 01:43 PM

Another question about Black Paint.
 
Ok, This may have been discussed in this forum before, but I haven't seen it yet. What I'm wondering is what type of paint had the best buffed out black. I'm not talking about brand. I'm just trying to find out if old lacquer, acrylic enamel, single stage or even Base/coat clearcoat had the best depth in black.

It's probably a question better answered by older painters. I've heard that rubbed out/buffed black lacquer looks better than newer Base/coat clearcoat black.

I'm asking this because the next time I paint an all black car, I'm going to cut/buff the entire vehicle, and try to get the best glass finish as possible. If I should stick with Base coat/Clear coat then just let me know. So yeah, I'm asking for a bit of a history lesson.

cjperotti 01-08-2011 01:50 PM

SS urethane black would give the best depth that you're looking for.

milo 01-08-2011 05:40 PM

+1 for single stage but they can be harder to work with if conditions aren't under control..


http://www.a2zautoforums.com/showthread.php?t=3668

http://www.a2zautoforums.com/attachm...achmentid=7188

trees 01-08-2011 05:41 PM

I'll second that.

trees

Mr.Bolt-on 01-09-2011 05:07 PM

I may just have to try that single stage black out. How well does single stage hold up to the elements of everyday weather? The more I see single stage paint jobs that lay out smooth without buffing, the more I like it.

I've never sprayed single stage, but I have plenty of experience with Base coat/clearcoat. Is single stage easier to buff than bc/cc?

cjperotti 01-09-2011 05:32 PM

The single stage actually provides better UV protection over bc/cc. Clearcoat has hardly any pigmentation in it provide good UV protection.

To get maximum depth in your finish wetsand with no courser than 1000 after you paint and let cure overnight. Then reshoot the car again, then cut and buff. Youíll be amazed at the depth and gloss youíll achieve. Itíll be a mirror finish when done. Pretty much like milo,s photo in his post.

milo 01-09-2011 05:34 PM

The project pictured is straight out of the paint booth and required no buffing. It is necessary to use all the additives to attain the enhanced gloss. (Pass on the FEE)

It sprays like a quality clear and after a quick drop coat it goes on wet on wet...

If your going to buff it be sure and nib and cut it with 1000 after 24 hours but not later than 72 hours.. Then let it gas out another 12 hours then re-sand with 2000 and buff as usual.

Have a NEW respirator for this stuff and a clean paint room.

http://www.bapspaint.com/docs/psheet...tron/P-204.pdf

It would be well worth painting a practice panel first...

you can do it!

shine 01-10-2011 07:06 AM

ss urethane is preferred by many over bc/cc. simply because of appearance. in time the clear coat will get fine scratches in it which will give the car a cloudy look. light bouncing off the black under the clear. this does not show as much in ss . cutting and buffing is no different . both will give you the same quality .

depth is achieved by the clarity of the finish. not paint type or # of coats .

pigment has nothing to do with uv protection.

cjperotti 01-10-2011 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shine
ss urethane is preferred by many over bc/cc. simply because of appearance. in time the clear coat will get fine scratches in it which will give the car a cloudy look. light bouncing off the black under the clear. this does not show as much in ss . cutting and buffing is no different . both will give you the same quality .

depth is achieved by the clarity of the finish. not paint type or # of coats .

pigment has nothing to do with uv protection.

Everything shine posted except the last sentence I accept.

Urethane clearcoat offers little UV protection. Generally when a manufacturer informs you a clear has UV protection it will have added a UV tint to it and they caution the tint will affect colors such as white and yellows by shading them with a slightly brownish look in their tech sheets. Sikkens is notorious for this effect and requires that every paint job unless a complete paint job is to be performed to blend all work.

shine 01-10-2011 09:27 AM

uv protection is an additive . nothing more. pigment has nothing to do with it. it is the pigment that fails without it.

cjperotti 01-10-2011 12:38 PM

You may be right, although, Iím not totally convinced.

Hereís my problem. All single stage automotive paint regardless of whether its enamel, urethane or acrylic lacquer is labeled as UV protected. Urethane clear however, unless labeled otherwise is not. Meaning no additive has been added obviously.

The reason this is a problem is that I find it hard to believe that any of these corporations would spend the money to add an additional additive when it is notoriously known they chinch on everything they produce. Therefore, If theyíre not adding a UV protectant as I seriously suspect then I can only assume the pigmentation in the colors is the reason for the protection they claim.

I may be wrong here but I donít think so.

Underground 01-10-2011 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjperotti
Sikkens is notorious for this effect and requires that every paint job unless a complete paint job is to be performed to blend all work.

Funny, my uncle has a shop that has been using Sikkens for 20 years and has NEVER had the problems you discribe. Sikkens is a TOP shelf product. And who's tech sheet states that their clear will change certain colors? The clears that do this are amber colored. Sherwin Williams had a clear that was like this years ago.

cjperotti 01-10-2011 04:46 PM

That's what I'm talking about and it wasn't so long ago. I've never used their clear myself although I've sprayed their basecoat. I never claimed it was a bad paint. Just clear problem as mentioned.

Underground 01-10-2011 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjperotti
That's what I'm talking about and it wasn't so long ago. I've never used their clear myself although I've sprayed their basecoat. I never claimed it was a bad paint. Just clear problem as mentioned.

Whos base coat have you used and not their clear? There is some confusion here. :confused: I'm talking about SW clear being amber and it did change whites,silvers,golds. Gave them a yellow tint. NEVER ,EVER had that problem with Sikkens. Sikkens matches BEAUTIFUL!

BarryK 01-10-2011 05:06 PM

[QUOTE=cjperotti]You may be right, although, Iím not totally convinced.

Hereís my problem. All single stage automotive paint regardless of whether its enamel, urethane or acrylic lacquer is labeled as UV protected.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As simple as possible, ALL SS paints have UV inhibitors added.
SS paints are nothing more then clear with a dispersion additive to keep the pigment from settling out.
BK



Urethane clear however, unless labeled otherwise is not. Meaning no additive has been added obviously.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

ALL Urethane clears have UV inhibitors added, there is a 30 year old saying, the most expensive thing in a gallon of clear is the UV inhibitors.
Most automotive clears have two different UV's added.
UV additives can range from $10 a lb to the high side for a 479 of $179 a lb.
BK

The reason this is a problem is that I find it hard to believe that any of these corporations would spend the money to add an additional additive when it is notoriously known they chinch on everything they produce. Therefore, If theyíre not adding a UV protectant as I seriously suspect then I can only assume the pigmentation in the colors is the reason for the protection they claim.
-----------------------------------------
If I can defend all of the accused, if UV inhibitors were not added and lets take a silver base as not to be extreme, like a red or black and also assume the base color of silver is a 7-8 fastness rating, that is considered the best and most expensive pigment. Fastness is a rating of heat and color hold out and another example would be say a 5-6 rating, industrial grades that are normally used for items that stay inside, such as phones, computers, lamps, in other words not exposed to the suns UV rays, remember UV's do not bend, you cannot get a sun tan laying under your car or in the house.

We spray this base with the best clear money can buy but it has no UV inhibitors, here is what we know.
Silver, in the SW or SE with full sunlight every day, the color will be dead inside of 2-4 weeks, up north might go a month.
BK

Yellowing:
The resin plays more of a role in this then the UV inhibitors, the more clarity the core resin has the more it costs, it is very expensive to go with the best but still not as expensive as UV's.
Can UVs cause yellow cast, sure but unlikely a company is going to over do the UV as one they are very expensive and two you get to a point of no payback.
Ciba recommends a percentage of both kinds by weight of solids and of course the higher the solids the more uv's are used if it is a good grade clear, games do get played in this area for sure.

BK

Hope this helps.


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