Anyone making big power with Cheap EFI setup - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2012, 08:35 AM
hcompton's Avatar
Old & Furious
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: MD
Age: 42
Posts: 1,074
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 6
Thanked 90 Times in 87 Posts
Anyone making big power with Cheap EFI setup

Anyone making big power with Cheap EFI setup?

I am thinking megasquirt or something similar. But havent been able to find anyone actually using them to make good power with out FI. I want to focus on N/A setups.

I work on cars as a hobby. It helps me relax.

My needs are as follows:

I need to be able to adjust the efi system for a bunch of intake designs I am working on and will be testing and playing with really.

I want to be able to make 500+ HP with the efi system. I know all the manufactures say there system can support X- HP numbers but we all know that is not really the case. Its just the injector size they are quoting.

I am not doing FI this is for my all motor 89 c4 vette. I know a bunch of people have made big power with turbos and blowers on efi. But that is easy FMU the car and turn the boost up until it makes power. I have a honda civic as my platform for turbo experiments. This will be for N/A applications.

This is not efi currently its a 70's 4 bolt main block 23 degree heads.
The engine is a 350 .060 magnum 294s cam aftermarket heads. It will run the numbers with a carb but my latest project is for EFI setup. I know in the end with proper tuning and setup a carb will always make more power than EFI but this is not about more power just if it can be done cheap enough for my needs. I am also aware you can buy a stand alone AEM or other ecu that can do what i need.

I want to spend less than 1K on a system. I will also need some datalogging and wide band support. I was thinnking of doing Megasquirt but wasnt sure if it has grown up enough or not. I have never seen anyone actually running one that made 500+ hp without a turbo. Plenty of this guy and that guy and they all make 1 billion plus hp but never see those guys at the track for some reason.

Just looking for some help. If i buy the wrong system it will be money down the drain and my fun projects will be useless and no fun at all.

If i go with a blower the injection system will say hilborn on the side of it and run off a belt. LOL Dont think small...

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2012, 09:11 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 9,487
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 20
Thanked 389 Times in 365 Posts
I have two basic MS systems. There are guys hitting over 1,000whp with MS2, maybe MS1. MS3 is even better if you really want all the bells and whistles.

For a basic 500hp 350 a MS1 system (like the two I have) is more than adequate. I bought both of mine used for $100 each. Sensors were another $25 and I made the harnesses with about another $20 in parts each.

Power is not a limiting factor, resolution is. You have larger fuel and spark tables with the more advanced (MS2 and MS3) systems and more sensor and output support. For your basic needs the oldest MS system (MS1 V2.2) with MSnS firmware will work fine though.

I'm not sure why you think you need some high dollar system for bigger power- you don't. What controls how advanced of a system you need is how much your operating parameters vary. If you want to run a large amount of boost, a duel fuel system, a huge cam, water injection, stand alone nitrous system, a boost controller, etc. MS1 will still work but MS3 will enable you to get a perfect tune for all situations where the MS1 with a smaller fuel and spark table will only have 95% as fine of a resolution at some RPM.

Any of the MS systems can handle 500hp, any of them can support a wideband. Call a MS dealer for more info for your application, I can't see why you'd need more than MS2, but they may sell you an MS3 since you have a grand to blow.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2012, 09:20 AM
hcompton's Avatar
Old & Furious
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: MD
Age: 42
Posts: 1,074
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 6
Thanked 90 Times in 87 Posts
A grand to blow!! No way cheap as possible. Last time i looked into mega squirt it was kinda slow great for 5500 rpm but would fall short above 7K but that was years ago. If the ms2 or 3 will support 8K rpm max that will be fine.

I am pretty sure it can be done but looking to find someone that has actually done it. To let me know of any gotchas in the system. Thanks for the great reply.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2012, 10:06 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 9,487
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 20
Thanked 389 Times in 365 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
A grand to blow!! No way cheap as possible. Last time i looked into mega squirt it was kinda slow great for 5500 rpm but would fall short above 7K but that was years ago. If the ms2 or 3 will support 8K rpm max that will be fine.

I am pretty sure it can be done but looking to find someone that has actually done it. To let me know of any gotchas in the system. Thanks for the great reply.
First of all MS1 can handle 8k rpm, RPM is not the issue, resolution is.

Secondly cheap and 8,000rpm sbc shouldn't both be said by the same person. for an 8k rpm sbc you're looking at a $20,000 engine, a extra few hundred for an MS3 system shouldn't even be a consideration.

You stated a 500hp sbc 350, which can be built on a budget of 5k or less (some really talented people can get it for less than 2k) and will never need to go over 7,000rpm.


Before you go any further you need to go back to square on and decide exactly what you want and/or can afford.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2012, 12:07 PM
hcompton's Avatar
Old & Furious
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: MD
Age: 42
Posts: 1,074
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 6
Thanked 90 Times in 87 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
First of all MS1 can handle 8k rpm, RPM is not the issue, resolution is.

Secondly cheap and 8,000rpm sbc shouldn't both be said by the same person. for an 8k rpm sbc you're looking at a $20,000 engine, a extra few hundred for an MS3 system shouldn't even be a consideration.

You stated a 500hp sbc 350, which can be built on a budget of 5k or less (some really talented people can get it for less than 2k) and will never need to go over 7,000rpm.


Before you go any further you need to go back to square on and decide exactly what you want and/or can afford.
So ms3 can handle 8K and still be fast enough to read the sensors and make adjustments. The first mega squirt was not fast enough to do that. I can run the engine off map tables on a gm oem ecu. Its sloppy and needs to be tuned more often than a carb.

I think what you think of as MS1 is newer than the megasquirt I looked at ten years ago or so. I think even when i was looking into them they were going to add a single IC and more memory space. I never got a hold of one of those units to test. MS1 is the unit that got updated. then ms2 and 3 came out years later.

Nerdy Content: You only have so many cpu cycles per second. The sensor data takes so many to collect the cpu needs to process the data by doing the math that tells it what section of what tabel it should look at to find its proper fuel map. then fire the injectors for the correct amount of time without over running the duty cycle of the injectors and the ecu. All this takes cpu cycles. If it take one second of cpu time to process and correct that **** then you car will run like crap and never be in the right map. Even if the computer has the correct fuel numbers they change before the computer can make use of them. Of course it does it anyway becasue it did notice you letting off the gas until the cpu cycles throught the sensors again. This is a common problem with older ford ecus. at 4000rpm or so the computer goes open loop and just runs off the tables. So it never adjust beyound its rpm limit. Ford faked this with a clever closed loop adjustable table it would store the data in and next time it was at that rpm it would use that map instead of the factory map. You can only do so much with an 8 bit computer. since it can only recieve 8 bits of data per cycle. Not sure if the megasquirt could support this type of mapping or if it is just fast enough to fix it on the fly.

I am sure of what I want. Just trying to find someone that can tell me the car they drive makes 500+ N/A with a megasquirt. I have never seen this animal in person. But my uncles, brothers, friends, sister had one as a pet. <=My little joke
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2012, 01:13 PM
OneMoreTime's Avatar
Hotrodders.com moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Health and safety in the shop or garage
Last journal entry: Yard Dog pic
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington State
Age: 70
Posts: 7,520
Wiki Edits: 3

Thanks: 81
Thanked 173 Times in 161 Posts
MegaSquirt - Electronic Fuel Injection Computer by Bowling and Grippo 2010

The realtive cost of the system will depend on how much you wish to do yourself..buying the components and raiding the pick-a-part for injectors and wiring harness will be the cheaper way to go..Of course the learning curve is steep but the results can be very satisfying..Now if the budget runs to it you can pay someone to build you a plug and play system..

Botom line itis your time or yor money..

Sam
__________________
I have tried most all of it and now do what is known to work..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2012, 03:09 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 9,487
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 20
Thanked 389 Times in 365 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
So ms3 can handle 8K and still be fast enough to read the sensors and make adjustments. The first mega squirt was not fast enough to do that. I can run the engine off map tables on a gm oem ecu. Its sloppy and needs to be tuned more often than a carb.

I think what you think of as MS1 is newer than the megasquirt I looked at ten years ago or so. I think even when i was looking into them they were going to add a single IC and more memory space. I never got a hold of one of those units to test. MS1 is the unit that got updated. then ms2 and 3 came out years later.

Nerdy Content: You only have so many cpu cycles per second. The sensor data takes so many to collect the cpu needs to process the data by doing the math that tells it what section of what tabel it should look at to find its proper fuel map. then fire the injectors for the correct amount of time without over running the duty cycle of the injectors and the ecu. All this takes cpu cycles. If it take one second of cpu time to process and correct that **** then you car will run like crap and never be in the right map. Even if the computer has the correct fuel numbers they change before the computer can make use of them. Of course it does it anyway becasue it did notice you letting off the gas until the cpu cycles throught the sensors again. This is a common problem with older ford ecus. at 4000rpm or so the computer goes open loop and just runs off the tables. So it never adjust beyound its rpm limit. Ford faked this with a clever closed loop adjustable table it would store the data in and next time it was at that rpm it would use that map instead of the factory map. You can only do so much with an 8 bit computer. since it can only recieve 8 bits of data per cycle. Not sure if the megasquirt could support this type of mapping or if it is just fast enough to fix it on the fly.

I am sure of what I want. Just trying to find someone that can tell me the car they drive makes 500+ N/A with a megasquirt. I have never seen this animal in person. But my uncles, brothers, friends, sister had one as a pet. <=My little joke
You really don't get it. max power has NOTHING to do with it. I have an MS1 on a 2.8L inline 6 that occasionally sees 7,000, it runs just fine with the MS1.

If you're that concerned with it go to a megasquirt forum or dealer and have a look at the thousands of people who run it just fine. The top of the line MS3 system still comes in well under your $1k cap so I don't see what you're after. MS1 is adequate for almost any street application, MS2 is even better, and MS3 is pretty much advanced enough to put a rocket into orbit IMO. Its way overkill, but it too will work for your application just fine.

A 500hp sbc is nothing special and I'm sure there's someone out there running one off of an original GM TBI unit and computer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2012, 08:29 AM
hcompton's Avatar
Old & Furious
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: MD
Age: 42
Posts: 1,074
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 6
Thanked 90 Times in 87 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
You really don't get it. max power has NOTHING to do with it. I have an MS1 on a 2.8L inline 6 that occasionally sees 7,000, it runs just fine with the MS1.

If you're that concerned with it go to a megasquirt forum or dealer and have a look at the thousands of people who run it just fine. The top of the line MS3 system still comes in well under your $1k cap so I don't see what you're after. MS1 is adequate for almost any street application, MS2 is even better, and MS3 is pretty much advanced enough to put a rocket into orbit IMO. Its way overkill, but it too will work for your application just fine.

A 500hp sbc is nothing special and I'm sure there's someone out there running one off of an original GM TBI unit and computer.
Did you read my original post its for trying several different intakes.

"I need to be able to adjust the efi system for a bunch of intake designs I am working on and will be testing"

Trust me I get it. And yes MAX POWER is the only thing that matters! No one make custum intake manifolds for a sb chevy unless they are looking for more juice.

Inline 6? its a corvette not a tractor. Im glad your tractor motor runs great with the ms1 enjoy it. I was thinking about the ms3 from the start. ms1 never crossed my mind. Also hoping that some others out there may have some good adivce for different companies and systems. Since I have actually owned a few systems from holley and others over the years. I can tell you most of them are crap! My holley projection only worked right when it was floored. Everything else was terrible and it did not flow no 1000 cfm like it said.

Also the + behind the 500 you seem to be over looking. Should I have said 500 to 1000 hp. Yep 500 hp is easy to get. But 500 N/A running efi can get very expensive. Still easy to do but not cheap. Cheap and easy, well now we get into a problem area because no manufacture or speed shop will tell you to go cheap. They want you to spend every penny you have.

MS3 looks great on paper but havent had anyone tell me its great for them. I have herd from a few people that took them off and replaced them with much more costly solutions. Mostly I here from people with low power apps running the ms1. making less than 400 hp. Like your tractor motor.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2012, 08:44 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At Speed
Age: 51
Posts: 1,399
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 41 Times in 39 Posts
Haltech.
Motec.
I've used both and they are powerful and more than capable of doing the job. I have no idea what they cost.
I did some testing for Holley on the Projection when it was new, back in the 1990's. The consensus was that the systems were really only suitable for motorhomes and boats.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2012, 08:47 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 9,487
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 20
Thanked 389 Times in 365 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
Did you read my original post its for trying several different intakes.

"I need to be able to adjust the efi system for a bunch of intake designs I am working on and will be testing"

Trust me I get it. And yes MAX POWER is the only thing that matters! No one make custum intake manifolds for a sb chevy unless they are looking for more juice.

Inline 6? its a corvette not a tractor. Im glad your tractor motor runs great with the ms1 enjoy it. I was thinking about the ms3 from the start. ms1 never crossed my mind. Also hoping that some others out there may have some good adivce for different companies and systems. Since I have actually owned a few systems from holley and others over the years. I can tell you most of them are crap! My holley projection only worked right when it was floored. Everything else was terrible and it did not flow no 1000 cfm like it said.

Also the + behind the 500 you seem to be over looking. Should I have said 500 to 1000 hp. Yep 500 hp is easy to get. But 500 N/A running efi can get very expensive. Still easy to do but not cheap. Cheap and easy, well now we get into a problem area because no manufacture or speed shop will tell you to go cheap. They want you to spend every penny you have.

MS3 looks great on paper but havent had anyone tell me its great for them. I have herd from a few people that took them off and replaced them with much more costly solutions. Mostly I here from people with low power apps running the ms1. making less than 400 hp. Like your tractor motor.
Datsun l28inline 6- not a tractor motor. BMW, Nissan, Toyota, and Ford also all make inline 6 sports car engines that are far from tractor motors.

As long as your intake design is good its irrelavant to the MS system what it looks like, IR, TPI, single plane, dual runner, etc- it doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter if you're shooting for 10hp or 1000hp as long as your injectors are properly sized for the job.

You keep thinking your application is somehow super special or unique but its really no different than running any stock engine out there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2012, 09:30 AM
Member
 

Last journal entry: was hoping for better than this
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 265
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 16
Thanked 20 Times in 20 Posts
the newer msI with dauter board= msII
has a faster chip set..
I think thats what the o/p was looking for..
if you are going to be testing different parts and/or same parts (non porte/ported/etc)
the msIII would be the one I'd look at.. if going ms..
the ms I&II can't run synquental injection only batch or bank...
msIII will do it..

I'm wondering if you could take an lsIII g.m. ecu and us it.. with the ls edit software.. to get what your looking for..

note : I've only looked into the ms systems and haven't used them..
as it's far from cheap.. and with your testing you are going to want balance tested injectors.(set that all flows the same gmh) you didn't say what type throddle body you'll be using on these intakes.. I can tell you 4 barrel tb are not cheap..
try reading here..
MegaSquirt | Engine Management System | Electronic Fuel Injection - DIYAutoTune.com

I got dizzy, reading..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2012, 10:13 AM
hcompton's Avatar
Old & Furious
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: MD
Age: 42
Posts: 1,074
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 6
Thanked 90 Times in 87 Posts
I agree lmsport the projection would work fine for a boat where the throttle was steady. But it was aweful in my car. My 500 CI poncho hated it. It was either way to much fuel or not enough.

Motech is for 4 and 6 cyl. and about 5 G's. They are top of the line systems. If you show up at the track with motorhome a bus and two 18 wheelers then you need motec. Haltec is good as well. Just really costly once you get datalogging and other bells and whistles.

Thanks! E great answer. The gm ecu is very good but once you have gone so far beyond its designed purpose im not sure it would still be stable.

I am going to run several throttle bodies and injector locations. SO being able to tune injector timing would be very useful. I am going to try four barrel style as well as multi point and itbs. Hell I was even going to see if the idle air control motor can be opened at wot and see if it give a few more cfm to restricted systems.

but really leaning toward a tunnel ram with 2 Q45 90 mm throttle bodies. Maybe one on throttle cable one for drive by wire high rpm helper or not. I will have to see what works.

Yep im strange but I build cool toys. They dont work but i have the best time building them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2012, 10:15 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 9,487
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 20
Thanked 389 Times in 365 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Furgal View Post
the newer msI with dauter board= msII
has a faster chip set..
I think thats what the o/p was looking for..
if you are going to be testing different parts and/or same parts (non porte/ported/etc)
the msIII would be the one I'd look at.. if going ms..
the ms I&II can't run synquental injection only batch or bank...
msIII will do it..

I'm wondering if you could take an lsIII g.m. ecu and us it.. with the ls edit software.. to get what your looking for..

note : I've only looked into the ms systems and haven't used them..
as it's far from cheap.. and with your testing you are going to want balance tested injectors.(set that all flows the same gmh) you didn't say what type throddle body you'll be using on these intakes.. I can tell you 4 barrel tb are not cheap..
try reading here..
MegaSquirt | Engine Management System | Electronic Fuel Injection - DIYAutoTune.com

I got dizzy, reading..
you can run sequential on an MS2 unit. And if you're wanting to add a gazillion snensor for datalogging then MS3 is better, and faster, and has better resolution than MS2- BUT you can tune with an MS2 just fine and not have any difference in power. Again, power has NOTHING to do with it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2012, 10:31 AM
Member
 

Last journal entry: was hoping for better than this
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 265
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 16
Thanked 20 Times in 20 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
you can run sequential on an MS2 unit. And if you're wanting to add a gazillion snensor for datalogging then MS3 is better, and faster, and has better resolution than MS2- BUT you can tune with an MS2 just fine and not have any difference in power. Again, power has NOTHING to do with it.
power has everything to do with it.. with out the speed to make the caculations, you DON'T make power..
reaction to action..
I was told flat out the msII does batch or bank ONLY.. by more than a few on the diy forum
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2012, 10:53 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 9,487
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 20
Thanked 389 Times in 365 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Furgal View Post
power has everything to do with it.. with out the speed to make the caculations, you DON'T make power..
reaction to action..
I was told flat out the msII does batch or bank ONLY.. by more than a few on the diy forum
MS1 has been used in many engines over 500hp. And it is the slowest of the bunch. The calculations are the same for 15hp or for 150hp per cylinder, the power is irrelevant.

You can run 4 sequential channels on a MS2 system, meaning your sbc will have "semi-sequential" injection if you're running 8 injectors (2 injectors per channel). It comes down to the number of channels, you can have 4 on a MS2, 8 on a MS3.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
cheap efi small block 1970 CST/10 Engine 1 12-13-2010 03:59 PM
New EZ EFI setup or not? Juicer28 Engine 6 06-01-2010 04:32 PM
bbc427 need help making big power dre1984 Engine 14 03-05-2010 12:28 PM
anybody making big power with vacuum secondaries? tombo615 Engine 7 08-09-2006 03:59 PM
cheap high performance efi Blob Engine 1 06-26-2004 06:43 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.