[oldguy829]

Found this product at www.pickelx20.com.
Looks like the perfect solution for a hobbyist. Would allow me to clean and strip a small area, treat it, and leave it for months while I finsh the rest of the car.
Personally I find it a big hassle to have to stop and mix paint (in the correct amount) to spray a 2 ft by 3 ft area, then clean up the gun, every time I get a chance to work on the body. With repairs, distractions, other obligations, it may take over 6 months just to strip the body.
This solution is so perfect it scares me. Have any of you had actual experience with this stuff?

[Lost in NJ]

I have been using it extensively over the last 2 years.

All my parts kept out of the weather and I get very humid at the Jersey shore.

I needed to do significant metal work to fenders and such and this stuff clearly protects. I have also been glass beading stuff over the winter and using the P 20 to protect the metal until warmth comes back and painting is possible.

What I have found, contrary to what some might tell you. Some parts that I did not spend enough time getting rust out of the bottom of some small pits did have rust pop back through after pickelx. This confirmed my thought that the P20 is not able to convert through thicker rust. So if you have pits you need to be sure the bottom of the pit is not dark after blasting.

Before painting you will want to scuff the surface. If you get a white area after drying you can use some more p20 to wet it and then dry it well with a rag.

It is very easy to work with and does not need to be rinsed off. I have also found some powercoaters are using it before coating.

[oldguy829]

Thanks for the insight. Looks like this will work on most of the car, light surface rust, but the hood is something else. Nearly unobtainable 53 Stude coupe hood, and the one I found is deeply pitted all over. Is blasting the only way to get it all out?

[red65mustang]

old guy,

I wouldn't risk warping that hood by trying to sandblast every last bit of rust out...(you don't need to!)

"why"

because rust can't grow without a electrical charge and moisture and oxygen....

you basically can't eliminate the electrical charge....the car body is used for a grounds path back to the batt and just static in the air is enough to cause rust....

"but"

when it is time to paint...

the 2 part epoxy is a 99.99% effective barrier to H2O and O2 so what ever rust is still in the pit's can't and won't grow...

for up to 3 months in FL humidity I've had good luck with Duplicolor and Mar-Hyde rattle can "self etching primer"....it does "help" to convert the micro rust in the pits because it does contain a bit of acid and it's easy to sand off before paint and it's compatible with fillers and epoxy if you leave a bit....and it's a light green color so it's a "guide" coat to find imperfections

I haven't used the picklex but based on "Lost's" info...sounds like the amount of protection is similar to maybe a bit(?) better with "self etching primer"

stopping rust is the same as how to stop a fire....remove any one of the three requirements (spark/air/fuel) and it's gone...the epoxy removes two of the three requirements for rust...and todays 2 part urethane's by themselves are darn good H2O and O2 barriers

ps: I only use true rust convertors as a very last possible resort...the converted "flakes" are not bonded well to the steel at all

[adtkart]

You should try the "search" function here. It will give you more information on that subject ("rust convertors")than you can read in a day.

I can tell you that I WILL NOT paint over anything that has been treated with one of those products again. I have seen enough paint flaking off from that stuff for a lifetime.

Epoxy is the only product that will seal those panels to prevent rust. Using a "2K primer" or "Etch primer" will not seal it, as they will absorb moisture.

Aaron

[Fizzy]

If you sandblast that stude hood it will warp. Try a 3M scotchbrite 4" stipper disc on a drill, then use Naval Jelly. Just did same thing, worked 100%

[Lost in NJ]

Well more bad advice.

You must get to the bottom of the pits. Anything less and one day it will come back to bite you. I was practicing and went right over rust pits with not rust removal on a practice piece. Looked great when I was done, I am sure it would fall off if I left it outside.

Contrary to popular belief, sandblasting will only cause warpage if you do it wrong. After doing a bunch of cars and not having one piece warped from the process I can safely say it works. I run a pressure pot at 40 PSI and I control the sand in the stream. I only allow enough sand in the stream to be visible out the nozzle. If you want I can go into the science of sandblasting and what causes warpage.

You could grind to the bottom of the pits, but the metal might get thin.

You can use molasses and water to slowly eat out all the rust in the pits.

You can use electrolytic rust removal (this works great!). But you need to rig a big tank.

A wire brush just skips over the surface and never gets really into the pit.

You can also use a product called Ospho. Unlike other treatments, you do not have worry about neutralizing it. This will get to the bottom of the pits.

Rust will not happen with pure water bare metal, well not very easy. A micro current will accelerate the process significantly. A drop of acid rain can set up that current. It is worse on seams because you get a strong battery effect.

In the end, it all comes down to how long you want it to hold up. If you are slapping it out you can probably get a bunch of years laying down some epoxy over the pits and rust. If you want it to look nice then you have to do more.

All the information you need can be had online. Read up on how the products work and think about the surface you are putting it on. Do you think that surface will hold paint real well and for how long?

[oldguy829]

Lost in NJ, my limited experience...
Had our 28 ford body sand blasted, they promised no warpage, BS. Never again. Learning to do it myself? on these hard to find parts, too risky.

rust converters, redid the hood on my 41 pontiac. It had rust bubles real bad. cleaned it with wire brush very thoroughly, used a rust converter, bc/cc.
within 3or 4 months I had tiny pinhole size spots that look like bubble rust, but havent grown in the last year. Someone said maybe solvent pop?

All other painting was on non rusted surfaces, with no problems.

This hood is RUSTED. Still solid, but very deep surface rust, feels like 36 grit sandpaper. this is a 53 Studebaker C/K Hood. Poor as it is, it was the only one I could find in a long search.
So, it looks like, stipping with a pad, using Ospho ? then epoxy coating, is my best bet? Or sending it out for media blasting other than sand, and having it epoxy coated. You concur?

And I welcome any opinions on the tiny pin spots on my Pontiac. Interesting that the same side front fender (which was painted 15 years ago) has the same tiny little bumps. Such a nice match it looks like the same clown did them both.

[ortamenxs]

A shop locally uses it and swears by it I never have tried it out.

I've very little good and a lot of bad about sand blasting anything for exterior body work. I basically just use a sanding block my self. As far as rust prevention, ultimately I think it is almost impossible. But I've had good luck with rubberizing the inside of fenders ect. . . and using acrylic paint. I like acrylic, some people hate it like using it is a mortal sin, but it hardens to almost like a shell type consistency, will protect even the cheapest most spongiest prime under it. two coats acrylic paint, one coat acrylic clear, deep shine and excellent protection. To remove rust I use several brands of :rust dissolver) it will eat the rust away, ad leave a ashy used to rust substance that wipes or brushes off easily, and then leave a clean pit, or a hole clear through the body panel, ect. Then I can work with the bare metal, to protect mine in the winter or time sI can't paint or do whatever to it, I use floor wax on it, a thick coat . . My two cents.

[MARTINSR]

Originally Posted by oldguy829

Lost in NJ, my limited experience...
Had our 28 ford body sand blasted, they promised no warpage, BS. Never again. Learning to do it myself? on these hard to find parts, too risky.

This is exactly what I preach on this subject. I will constantly be beat up by people who do sandblast successfully. They will say over and over how it is possible, so is catching a bullet in your teeth, but I don't suggest trying it.

I have seen over the years too many threads on forums to count where some guy has RUINED panels. I have seen personally, a PRO sandblaster who I have had do "Hard parts" over the years who swore he could do my 28 Buick door, he RUINED it. As I have said before, it isn't a "Darn it, I caused myself more work" kinda damage. It is more of a "%#$@, I DESTROYED the panel and have to throw it away" kinda damage.

Yes, it is possible, but I never suggest it anyone because I have no idea of their skills.

Search out the thread "secrets of rust removal" for the best discussion on the subject.

Brian

[red65mustang]

adtcart,
thanks,
I can see how my info can/could be mis-read

We only use the rattle can self etch primer for "temporary" bare metal rust prevention help (some of our "restorations" are "forever" to complete) or so bright metal panels can be handled for welding/bonding installation...

We do remove it with a 80 grit sanding to bright steel and maybe even a light sand blasting depending on the part shape to prep for the 2 part epoxy.....

NO WAY would Ospho be used on one of our customers cars!!!!

[adtkart]

Red... I was not attacking you, or atleast did not mean to. I have read to many of your posts to think you meant to leave it there. I just didn't want someone else to think it should be done that way.

As far as the Ospho.... I painted a Challenger a year or so ago for a guy. He wanted the underside of the hood painted also, so I started to sand it, and I noticed some loose paint. I stripped it with an air hose and blow nozzle. I ask him what they had done to it when it was painted last time. "We treated it with Ospho because it had had some rust on it", was his response. I did find some minor pitting, but no rust to speak of. I have since seen several cars where the paint was flaking off. The owners told me that same story.

I would almost rather have the rust start back later than have the paint that I spent so many hours and dollars on flake off.

Take some time and read Randy Ferguson's thread on rust removal. It will give you the correct way to remove the rust and be done with it.

Aaron

[69 work in progress]

Aaron, you beat me to the punch. The article is probably the best I've read on rust removal. ( Randy's piece). I did.t think that picklex was a converter but rather a removal process. Still I agree that it must be completely cleaned (removed) prior to paint, but isn't this a common problem with all of these products.
Vince

[adtkart]

According to their site,

http://www.picklex20.com/

It is a pretreatment type product. To me, it is similar to Ospho, which I have had dealings with.

Randy recommends using Naval Jelly. That stuff has been around for a very long time, as I remember it from when I was a kid. I have not had any bad experience from people using it. Maybe it is because people seem to follow the instructions for it better than the other shuff.

Aaron

[red65mustang]

aaron,

Navel Jelly "is" Ospho....main ingredient in both is about 40% Phosphoric acid..

as Randy points out the really nice thing about Navel Jelly is it "clings" like a paint stripper so you can scrub with steel wool...otherwise they are the same

the reason the paint fell off that Ospho'd hood (is the same as when using a paint stripper)....on the last application to get the last bit of rust there isn't enough rust to neutralize the amount of Phosphoric acid which will remain active for months....

if you do use Navel Jelly or any acid based "convertor" do at least wash the part with baking soda and Dawn or risk paint failure

old guy,
I do concur with Lost in NJ, the best way is electrolysis...go get a kids plastic swimming pool to submerge the hood to remove deep pits rust...or ship it to these folks here in central FL to deal with it...

http://www.autorestorationdepot.com/

how long will epoxy seal out pit rust?
because a hood is a "hot and dry" part of the car, rust grows very very slow to begin with...."fair chance" that the lower qtr's paint will fail with rust before the hood will

last year we did a Hillman Imp, once the front was stripped to bare metal, it was clear the whole front facia should have been cut from the unibody and sent out for treatment..(it was the only heavy pitted metal on the car)....the customer's budget couldn't afford the expense....we told him that honestly our "guess" is that piece will need to be repainted in 5-10 years because we couldn't sand blast the pits clean (happens to be a easy solid color and easy panel to re-paint)
NO we don't just slap them together and cut corners...but worse case scenario....repainting just the hood after 5+ years (is to me) is a better choice than risking warping it in the first place

ps: the Imp was so different to do it was just plain fun to do...and the owner and us are pretty proud...it was part of the "Concourse de Elegance" at this years Lake Mirror Classic...

it's the panel between the headlights in the pic' that's going to fail eventually

pps: for the very best rust protection possible....have the bare steel hood E-coated...but....it must be 101%+ rust free or the coater won't allow it in his tank...