[1genbird]

My 68 firebird non hei, 3 wire alt ,400 motor, manual trans, non ac will not stop cranking after key is shut off.
I have rewired the whole ignition and run/start system according to the directions given here and it still keeps cranking.
The alt is completly disconnected so no back feed there. And I dissconnected the wires from the coil and turned the key on and it still keeps cranking.,so it seems nothing is wired into the dedicated coil wire, all of the wiring at the fuse box is original There is no where on the car that looks like it has been molested. I tested the solinoid at napa and it is fine.I would like to unplug both plugs at the firewall to the fuse box and try it but my sol wire still feeds through there and I dont want to cut it. I have to say that I ran a 12 ga wire from the r term on the sol to the + on the coil and I did not install a ballest resister because it was not there from the start. and that is not the problem because I disconnected the coil and it still kept cranking when i turned the keto start it.
Any help please without shouting or calling me ignorant would be appreciated.
THANKYOU SO MUCH IN ADVANCE

[Holder350]

heres what you do......get a test light, crank the motor up, and have a buddy at the key switch.

test the wires in the wireing harness to find a wire that is hot when the key is on and "not" when its off........then jump from that wire to the coil.

And hopefuly there is enough amps on that wire to run the coil.

[Holder350]

Better yet run off the trigger wire on the alt

[Holder350]

Double post......friggn stupid dsl

[1genbird]

I am not tring to run the coil I am tring to get the engine to shut off after the key is turned off. I dont have time to test wires when it is cranking slow and not stopping. When it cranks the battery down to nothing every thing starts getting real hot.I am not even going to turn the key again until I figure something out. I think there must be something going on with the switched side of the fuse box. Me and a friend hot wired the car and it still kept running after pulling the jumper. we had no wires on the coil or the alt except for the wire going to the distrib from the coil.I guess that somwhere there is a wire keeping the switch hot but I dont know how to go about finding it Thank you very much for your response!

[docvette]

Originally Posted by 1genbird

My 68 firebird non hei, 3 wire alt ,400 motor, manual trans, non ac will not stop cranking after key is shut off.
I have rewired the whole ignition and run/start system according to the directions given here and it still keeps cranking.
The alt is completly disconnected so no back feed there. And I dissconnected the wires from the coil and turned the key on and it still keeps cranking.,so it seems nothing is wired into the dedicated coil wire, all of the wiring at the fuse box is original There is no where on the car that looks like it has been molested. I tested the solinoid at napa and it is fine.I would like to unplug both plugs at the firewall to the fuse box and try it but my sol wire still feeds through there and I dont want to cut it. I have to say that I ran a 12 ga wire from the r term on the sol to the + on the coil and I did not install a ballest resister because it was not there from the start. and that is not the problem because I disconnected the coil and it still kept cranking when i turned the keto start it.
Any help please without shouting or calling me ignorant would be appreciated.
THANKYOU SO MUCH IN ADVANCE

Doc here,


The most common cause is you have the "R" and "S" terminals reversed....



THE "S" terminal is the small one closest to the BLOCK....

THE "I" or "R" terminal is the small one closest to the Fender-well or Header.

IF these were reversed , the starter will crank ANYTIME the key is on..

The second most common cause, is bad installation of the wrong crimp terminals, and the "B" and "S" wires are touching at the solenoid..(this would crank 24/7/367..cable would need to be removed to stop it..)

Another cause, power from the Backup lamps and NSS switch (assume you have the duel function, single switch) are reversed..(power whenever the key is on..)

Lastly, if all Checks..It's time for a new Ignition switch/column harness..

BTW: Don't run without a ballast...Or you will run the risk of burning the points right out, overheating the coil, and burning it up as well..

USE a METER to test with... A test lamp will tell you, there is SOME amount of power from some where..going to some where..NOT how Much power, whether it is series or parallel, AC or DC..For instance the loaded side of the ballast should be 6 to 9 volts when the points are closed..and 12 when open..a lamp won't show you that..Lamps are good for checking FUSES and light bulbs..not much else to be accurate. You could spend days chasing a problem that may look like it checked good and wasn't.

Doc

[docvette]

Originally Posted by Holder350

Better yet run off the trigger wire on the alt

Doc here,

NEVER...Run ANYTHING (except test equipment) off the output wire of the Alternator..Never!

You run the risk of destroying the alternator (no Battery buffer) , destroying the device you are trying to power, unexpected conditions (like Ignition run on after the key is off), Blown charging Fuse link, harness melt down and fire..

The Alternator output wire should go DIRECT to it's fuse link, then to the battery either at the Solenoid or a single terminal connector at or near the battery...and Nowhere else.


Doc

[docvette]

Originally Posted by 1genbird

I think there must be something going on with the switched side of the fuse box.

Me and a friend hot wired the car and it still kept running after pulling the jumper.

we had no wires on the coil or the alt except for the wire going to the distrib from the coil.

I guess that somwhere there is a wire keeping the switch hot but I dont know how to go about finding it

Thank you very much for your response!

Doc here,

The Alternator and Coil will have NO effect (should have no effect if wired correctly) On the Solenoid engage Circuit..

The alternator has no correlation to the "S" terminal at all..

The ONLY possibility for the coil to be suspect, IS if you have a remote mounted resistor..OR resistor wire, and a SINGLE wire terminal to the + side of the coil, this means the "I" side of the resistor is CRIMPED to the output side of the resistor ( + side of the coil ) and the IGNITION side of the wire (from the switch is crimped to the input side of the resistor or resistor wire..IN this configuration, IF the "S" and "R" wires at the solenoid were reversed, It would crank ANYTIME the switch was on..It would backfeed through the resistor from the switch to the "S" terminal (where it should NOT be..) and crank.

A Very Simple way to test this, safely, get where you can access the "S" wire at the starter..have a Bro turn the switch on..when it starts cranking on it's own..pull the "S" wire..if it quits..those are reversed.. (The "S" and "I" wires)..just swap them.


Doc

[1genbird]

Hi , The s and r wires are definetly not reversed
The wires are not touching at the solinoid
I have a new ing switch and tested it , it is fine,I will need to check the coluom harness to be sure it is all good.
I will also check out the back up lamps but I dont think they are reversed because I looked at all the wiring and there is no new stuff or splices or anything else that would lead me to believe that they are reversed , its all original.(I know never assume anything)
I will install a ballost resister although I am going to switch to hei when I figure this problem out. I dont think the resisters are very spendy though, a lot less than a coil and points.
I wont run anything off the alt except test equipment.
Doc if I unpluged both harnesses from the firewall and just left the ing /start / run wires attached that I have rewired, would not that be a good way to eliminate the ? of bad wiring in the ing system?I would have to redo the sol wire that still runs through that plug but at least I could take that wiring out of the picture.?I need to get at least part of the wiring out of the picture.

[docvette]

Doc here,

AGAIN...

There is ONLY one wire that will effect the energizing of the solenoid..

THAT is the "S" wire..ONLY...Period!

IF you start pulling plugs, wires and other parts , what your going to end up with is a bunch of ELECTRICAL problems that will Plague you for the lifetime of the car..

THERE are ONLY 5 ways electrically the solenoid engage can be stuck ... Period..

• The R and S wires are bass~ackwards
  
  
• The 4 Wires to the NSS/Backup lamps have had their power leads reversed..(BU power connected to "S" wire, and Key "S" power to BU lamps) ALL 4 wires are located on the same switch.
  
  
• The S and BATT wires are shorted, (either at the solenoid OR in the harness, melted together..)
  
  
• The Contact Shoe at the solenoid is Welded to the contacts.
  
  
• The Ignition switch has welded contacts.

MECHANICALLY The starter will SEEM like it's running IF the Bendix were bad, and stuck against the flywheel...BUT it would be off (usually) for the FIRST start of the day, then be engaged until it shakes loose again..


You SAY you are 100% Sure the R and S wires aren't backward...and The Starter TESTED properly, ALSO that you have replaced the Ignition switch, IF you CORRECTLY tested the system, that leaves only a few things to test..

AS I SAID BEFORE...

The Fastest, simplest way to test, is when it cranks on it's own, pull the "S" wire from the solenoid..IF IT stops cranking..IT IS ON THE "S" wire only..IF it continues To crank..go get a NEW Solenoid..that one is welded..


Doc

[cunningham]

I had trouble one time with the starter not being shimmed properly. The solenoid would engage the starter gear and it would wedge into the flywheel teeth enough that it would not stop cranking. Just a thought.

Paul Cunningham

[Holder350]

Originally Posted by docvette

Doc here,

NEVER...Run ANYTHING (except test equipment) off the output wire of the Alternator..Never!

You run the risk of destroying the alternator (no Battery buffer) , destroying the device you are trying to power, unexpected conditions (like Ignition run on after the key is off), Blown charging Fuse link, harness melt down and fire..

The Alternator output wire should go DIRECT to it's fuse link, then to the battery either at the Solenoid or a single terminal connector at or near the battery...and Nowhere else.


Doc

I understand that - I misunderstood his problem I thought that the car continued to RUN after the switch was turned off.

I also did not tell him to run on the output wire of the alt, only the trigger wire that plugs into the side. If his problem had been what I thought it was (the coil wire being hot all the time) it technically would have worked.

I do see that he hasn't said that he has changed the starter/solenoid. I'd warrant thats his problem.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by Holder350

I do see that he hasn't said that he has changed the starter/solenoid. I'd warrant thats his problem.

I'm willing to bet the problem is a burr on the motor shaft that is holding the starter drive out in the "engaged" position. On a GM starter, the solenoid core piece also pushes on the motor contact disk to provide electrical power to the starter. If a burr on the shaft is holding the starter drive out, then it is also holding the electrical contacts closed. I had this problem on a GM starter once and went crazy trying to find it.

[Holder350]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

I'm willing to bet the problem is a burr on the motor shaft that is holding the starter drive out in the "engaged" position. On a GM starter, the solenoid core piece also pushes on the motor contact disk to provide electrical power to the starter. If a burr on the shaft is holding the starter drive out, then it is also holding the electrical contacts closed. I had this problem on a GM starter once and went crazy trying to find it.

Good reply I would have never thought of that

[red65mustang]

because you don't have a ballast resistor (yet) you don't need the R or I terminal (connected to anything)....it's there to feed the full 12V to the coil only when cranking/starting by bypassing the resistor which only supplies 6-9 volts at cranking speed....

check simple first:

ign off, R wire removed and S wire removed use a jumper connected to the S terminal and just touch it to batt + to check how the starter and solonoid are behaving....at this point none of the car wiring is involved and the starter should engage and turn over the motor and turn off and disengage when the jumper is removed if they are working properly.......
what your doing is testing the solonoid and starter under a "real world" working electrical load

do that and post back

suggestion: go to a local parts store and by a batt ground quick disconnect (<$10?) and mount it so you can kill power quickly...and it's so darn handy whenever your working on the car (unless you have 50 radio presets to reprogram)