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Old 06-19-2005, 02:38 AM
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Auto and timber finishes

I need expert opinion! Can anyone tell me what is more difficult to spray paint and prepare and more involved finish? Is auto work more complex to achieve a pro finish as opposed to timber finishing? I believe auto painting is 100 times more harder to achieve a pros gloss than is work on furniture. Am i correct in my assumption?

I can work wood finishes but want to attempt auto refinishing. Oh the car i want to attempt to paint is oxidized, rust spots and dented here and there plus wrinkled panels when viewed from a side.

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Last edited by candyandy; 06-19-2005 at 03:17 AM.
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Old 06-19-2005, 04:36 AM
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It depends on how the wood is being refinished.

Some of the custom wood refinishers are using urethane systems and on some projects also house of color.
In this case I would say its a toss up with the exception the wood finishers need more dry time per coat (epoxy) to get the desired slickness.

Wood finishers using the old type stain systems and lacquer systems are
no-brainers and cannot be compared to auto painting.
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Old 06-19-2005, 03:08 PM
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If you are used to using high quality wood finishes, you will find the paint application to be similar when painting metal. The big difference is in the preparation. Wood is much easier, IMO, than metal to prep to get a good result. I have been in the cabinet business for 32+ years and have applied everything from NC lacquer (easiest) to 2 part conversion varnish and epoxies (most difficult). I have painted vehicles, but not metallics, and after a brief adjustment for the differences in viscosity, its just spraying. Keep the gun at the right distance and perpendicular to the surface.

Scott
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Old 06-20-2005, 12:51 PM
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I do a lot of cabinetry in the winter and I say that there are a lot of
similarities. Don't get the products mixed up though, some car finishes
don't adhere to a stained surface. Contrary to what some believe all
lacquers are not the same. I can sit a wet glass on a lacquered car,
I can't do that to a lacquered table.
But the spraying and rubbing out are pretty much the same.
I buff out a lacquer table top the same way I do a car.
Wet sand with 2000 and buff with a buffer.
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Old 06-20-2005, 01:16 PM
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Contrary to what some believe all
lacquers are not the same. I can sit a wet glass on a lacquered car,
I can't do that to a lacquered table.
************************************************** *



Thats true, BECAUSE the wood is holding the solvents and slowing down the cure of the lacquer.

NOW, if you put a coat of epoxy on the wood first and let dry this will not happen. Of course doing this you cannot stain.

That why people that use automotive paints on wood for custom finishes the most critical thing they do is apply a coat of epoxy and walkaway over night than apply another coat. At that point it is no different than painting metal
as the epoxy is acting as a barrier coat.
Stain is not a barrier coat nor is an air dried sealer.
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Old 06-20-2005, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
Contrary to what some believe all
lacquers are not the same. I can sit a wet glass on a lacquered car,
I can't do that to a lacquered table.
************************************************** *



Stain is not a barrier coat nor is an air dried sealer.
That is true, but most high quality cabinet finishes are two part products that do cross link and give exellent barrier protection - for a while. The reason it is only for a while is because it is on wood, and wood moves with changes in climate, temperature, pressure and humidity. This cannot be prevented in any normal application. When it moves, it eventually creates microscopic cracks in the film, allowing moisture to penetrate, and if abused enough, the finish will actually degrade enough to the point of separation from the substrate (wood). That is why wood furniture and cabinetry needs to be maintained if you want it to look good over the long haul.

But back to the application, the process is very much the same with wood as it is with metal. Just know the capabilities of your equipment and the characteristics of the material you are spraying. Be sure of good surface preparation and a relatively dust free spray room with adequate exhaust. Then good equipment and good technique will give good results.
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Old 06-20-2005, 05:16 PM
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almega,

That is exactly right!
Only one thing I would like to add to what you said in regard to wood finishing.

Time is on your side!
(longer you wait between coats the better with wood)

But I'm only speaking of wood re-finishers using car paint systems as they are totally different than wood urethane systems.
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Old 06-20-2005, 05:28 PM
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BarryK
With some of the older finishes you don't have a "window of opportunity" but some of the newer pre-cats and post cats do have to be re-coated within 1 to 1-1/2 hours or you have to wait for 48 hours and then sand/scuff before coating. Generally in wood finishing you build heavier coats than you do in auto finishes, too. Depending on the finish, sometimes as much as 4-6 wet mils. And with some of the high solids conversion varnishes, that could be 1-2 dry mils. I don't think you would want that on a car, would you?
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Old 06-20-2005, 08:17 PM
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I've done quite a few gunstocks with automotive urethane clears that have held up perfectly, they look awesome. I usually do the clear sand clear thing 4-5 times before all the grain is filled and enough material is on for a good wetsanding and hand rub. I've also used tinted midcoat clear as a stain with good results, one of my guns is done with overlapping leaf patterns in different shades of brown this way- the wood grain shows right through. Clear the stock first to get your surface pores filled and to provide a good surface for masking then proceed with applying the tinted midcoat clear- same basic idea as a candy. Cabinets, shelves, coat racks, drums, guitars- no problems with using automotive clears on any of this stuff yet. Gunstocks require a good cleaning with laquer thinner after stripping and sanding to remove the usually soaked in gun oils that have been applied. I bet the automotive clears are a bit more expensive?
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Old 06-21-2005, 12:33 PM
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I have worked closely with about four custom wood refinishers, so it has been a learning experience for me and a lot of testing on my part.

For gun stocks or what ever, there is nothing as effective on wood as using an infrared on each layer such as epoxy and primer and base.
So effective the one shop has about $8,000 worth and the other at least $4,000 and for the record, the opposite of auto painting the medium wave is better than the short wave!
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Old 06-21-2005, 11:37 PM
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Many Thanks to ALL

Thanks dudes for your replies.
I guess that auto refinishing is more demanding because of the PREPARATION thats involved with it. With timber theres no real requirement to go to this level of getting that external factory finish that so many of us strive to achieve. Most timber products are kept well indoor and to go to a extreme case of EVERYDAY finishing with it would be un-necessary.

After all hotrods are subjected to the UV elements, rain, sleet fog and other naturalistic phenomonen but furniture? Of course there are finishers that will go to extra ordinary lengths to finish timber as one WOOD a car but is this an EVERYDAY requirement? I guess not. But with someones car!!! Well that person wants a factory if not better finish no matter what. I think that to use 2 pac on antique furniture would be very un -advisable and destroy its value.

To level a dent to a stage where it blends into the surrounding profile of a hotrod would be very much a test for a spraypainter, and this is a bit more difficult than it is with timber.

How does clear really stick to timber when auto prep requires several stages of prep paint before you can even hope on painting the final clear? Also any oil must be removed using prepwash but many timbers have natural oils that contradicts itself from adhesion. Timber absorbs paint without to much fuss and for that reason it "sticks", but is far more simpler process. Baking 2 pac seems to be another method for auto refinishers but to bake timber will permeate the moisture content of that timber to microscopic steam which is water, which we all know 2 pac and acrylic paints love to mix with. LOL.

Yes to spray paint is to do just that but to repair a car and then paint it well???? thats different before you get to it!!!

I think I wouldnt have a (SOLELY PROFICIENT) timber refinisher paint my car but (I would have an auto finisher paint my desk or visa versa .)

Timber should be really brushed , french polished, or lacquered without to much of a plastic look because it looks fabulous just tung oiled or even oiled or just beezwaxed. To go to auto finished process well a grand piano YES but count how many have one in there home and who owns cars??? Havent seen to many piano bingles!!!!

2 pac is originally designed for automotive because cars are subjected to harsh environments whether the owner likes it or not. Furniture is sheltered from this and really need not be finished as a car would.

Preparation is more involved than any timber finish no matter what and it dont matter who can paint or spray timber but who can finish a car to what it should be I would allow that person to paint my desk as well depending on their experience.

A person who has experience in both fair enough but to have only in one???? I still would trust an auto painter to SPRAY my furniture!

Last edited by candyandy; 06-21-2005 at 11:55 PM.
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