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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 12:14 AM
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I mostly agree with Centerline

I agree with Centerline that when a complete restoration is being done by a DIYer that it's beneficial to apply primer to protect the metal while body work is being done. However... does it enhance or hurt adhesion of the filler to the metal? That was the focus of the test NOT rust prevention. Epoxy primer is a good barrier to stop moisture from getting to the metal and is one of the reasons that shops both pro and DIY use these primers.

We created a page with the details of this test on autobodystore.com so that people could actually see the results of a test and not just hear other people talk the talk. This is not misleading information it shows the result of filler over primer by someone who KNOWS what they are doing. I would gladly make another page showing other results if they would further the knowledge needed to make the results of this type of work better.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 12:24 AM
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Evil, you are DEAD WRONG! I personally like blonds.

You know an interesting thing Centerline? As I said before, I talked to the techs at the Evercoat booth a LOT when I was at NACE. One of the most interesting things I learned was that they do a salt water spray test with their fillers!

The one that brought this to my attention was the new "Metal Glaze OEM" (Click here) .

"Its superior adhesion and corrosion resistance meets OEM specification of 500 hours salt spray (ASTM B117). Metal Glazeģ OEMô eliminates the costly step of coating the untreated metal before applying repair materials."


Very interesting indeed.

Brian
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 02:19 AM
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I have yet to have an adhesion problem when applying filler over epoxy. but the only time i do this is on a restoration or a huge area of bare metal.. this test isnt really saying anything about filler adhering to the epoxy but it is saying epoxy doesnt adhere to a metal substrate... im pretty sure dupont, ppg, basf prolly tested all senarios and im pretty sure with a multi million dollar reputation on the line that they wouldnt let the product leave the door if it didnt do its intended job.

something was obviously over looked in this test.. im not familiar with that epoxy but i know for damn sure ppg isnt going to put there reputation on the line and say u could use there epoxy on bare metal and put filler over it if it wasnt true.. seems a corner was cut somewhere in that test.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Len S.
This is not misleading information it shows the result of filler over primer by someone who KNOWS what they are doing.
*************************************************
Len,
As a favor to Brian, since he knows and likes you I started to write out the way to make the panel and the proper tests to use. Thirty minutes into it I deleted it. When your someone "who KNOWS what he's doing posts something as stupid as this:

"and who cares about the Mercedes, bmw or toyota engineers...these are the same guys who buid shelves in the wheelhouses of their cars so the dirt and snow can accumulate and keep humidity in there to make the car rot! Geesh...bring me one of these engineers and I'll show him (or her I am afraid...) " SEGE.

I'm just not interested in helping.
I make 20-35 of these panels every-spring one for each paint class I do,
and its never failed yet.

One thing you may want to know that I have posted on here before.
Do you know how epoxy was introduced to the automotive market?

In 1970 Mercedes went to Glasurt and wanted something to put on bare metal before body filler and it was in late or early 71-72 epoxy was introduced in the automotive refinishing market.
Of course these people are stupid as your expert pointed out.

Best of luck to you.

Last edited by Centerline; 11-26-2005 at 08:13 AM.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 09:34 AM
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Body filler.......again.

Geez guys, I think hotrodders.com has been invaded by the body filler fanatics. As I've said before, (and I ain't puttin' ya'll down) learn how to properly repair dents and metalfinish welds and you won't need to worry about your stupid friggin' body filler!!

In my opinion, this entire thread has absolutely NOTHING to do with hotrodding. You guys are obviously focusing on production techniques, as usual, rather than real world hot rodding.

Go talk about slathering your crappy late model junk with body filler somewheres else, PLEASE!!

Randy Ferguson
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Ferguson
Geez guys, I think hotrodders.com has been invaded by the body filler fanatics. As I've said before, (and I ain't puttin' ya'll down) learn how to properly repair dents and metalfinish welds and you won't need to worry about your stupid friggin' body filler!!

In my opinion, this entire thread has absolutely NOTHING to do with hotrodding. You guys are obviously focusing on production techniques, as usual, rather than real world hot rodding.

Go talk about slathering your crappy late model junk with body filler somewheres else, PLEASE!!

Randy Ferguson
AMEN TO THAT!
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
GEE! Chill out!...Don't take it personal. If you do "oh well"
LOL @ everyone, including me!

Hey, Randy, I know you think nobody should be putting filler on their old rig, but it's a fact of life that most will, for a variety of reasons, though learning techniques like yours is excellent for some kinds of damage.

In my opinion, this is a discussion about a very important stage in the process.

Another thing related to this procedure is the use of metal conditioners prior to priming. PPG's tech sheet for DPLF clearly states:

"Chemical treatment or the use of a conversion coating wil enhance the adhesion and performance properties of the finished system"

Could that be the problem?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 09:57 AM
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Randy, I was wondering if you could contain yourself and not post on this thread. Good to see you!

I have to say, metalfinishing is within most of our grasps. I started doing more and more at work just to hone my skills. I use to do a lot but being thrown back into a production shop enviornment had lost some.

The other day I had a 94 Ford F-150 long bed with hammered bed sides. They were very stretched (like it takes much on those damn things) and had no body what so ever in the large flat area in the middle. I couldn't get behind it very well so simply used a pry bar, pushed it out in a number of places and created a very lumpy mess. But I knew the shrinking disc should get it back ok. It did, all I was planning on doing was getting the oil can out but ended up almost metalfinishing it. It was really going good, amazing fast. But with my production manager standing over me telling me that I am wasting time, I had to stop. I just couldn't get him to understand that working with plastic filler or metal, what the hell is the difference, it takes X amount of time, either way. He didn't buy it and *****ed everytime I spun up the grinder. Oh well, I'll get it a little more and more until I have them use to it.

Honestly, I am not kidding, I think he is just smoking inside because he has no concept and is jealous that he can't do it.

Funny thing is, I am the one called to bail out the paint shop when they find a ding or something on a car in the booth. I can go over there and fix it without filler (no need to prime) and they can go on ahead with the paint work.

Thanks for pushing us Randy.

Brian
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 09:57 AM
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Barry and beemdubya

I guess (?) you guys know your automotive history but extrapolating that a product is good just because a multi-billion dollar company, with a good reputation, makes something it must be good is not very good logic. I've been a Porsche, Mercedes, BMW restorer for over 20 years and can tell you they have they made some stupid mistakes (like every other company or person that creates fine products) they also make fine automobiles. I also use the high priced paint products that were originally used on most of these vehicles and these companies also have generated a few products that were taken off the market or changed. Just because a company has a good reputation doesn't mean that every product they sell is going to work but they will probably have a better track record than the average company.

If you have a physical situation you want to understand the first thing you need to get is information in order to understand all the variables. So instead of criticizing the information that someone else has put forth I'd recommend that you DO you own testing.

While it is true that the test that was shown on Autobodystore may have not covered all the variables that would make you critics happy it was well done and well documented. I would suggest you do the same in order to satisfy your need to understand the variables fully. But don't worry I've found that there is always someone that will come along that will tell you you're wrong even if they may have never done any experimentation themselves or know of any similar testing that shows different results.

As far as Serge's test goes it shows that while the epoxy may fail before the filler it didn't really surprize me because most epoxy primers are not as hard or strong as most body fillers. However we still use Glasurit epoxy primer in our shop because it's a good product when used properly. Will it fail under extreme conditions? Of course, so will just about everything else but we should all know what those extremes are so we have a better understanding of our outcomes. I'm sure that the application of epoxy primer under filler is rarely exposed to this treatment but it still shows variables that exist whether you or anyone else may like it or not. It's a lot easier to be a critic that it is to do what you claim others have not done properly.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 10:08 AM
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This thread is confusing. I can't tell if Len posted to defend using filler over epoxy or not?

Len posted: In our shop we use primer under filler when the filler is applied over a seam located low on the vehicle. We do this because the seam could allow moisture to reach the face of the metal and the primer could help shield the metal from the moisture. In 39 years of automobile restoration we've never experienced any failure of filler bonding directly to the metal as long as the metal was prepared properly and the filler was applied properly.


So my question is how many failures HAVE YOU seen from using epoxy under filler? If you have never had a failure of filler over metal why would you stop that practice?

I looked over the filler / epoxy test a while back and dismissed it instantly. From what I could see all situations were failures. If anything it looked like the epoxy adhesion to the metal was the biggest failure. If thats the case who cares where the filler is applied because the paint is going to fail anyway if impacted. So it proves nothing. My personal experience with using epoxy is that it is good if you are going to take forever with your body work. My feeling is that you should do what the tech sheets say or contact the manufacturer of the products being used and ask them. I have only used martin senour and kirker epoxies and none of the tech sheets say it is ok to apply filler over epoxy, nor does the can of evercoat z grip filler that I use. I have asked the folks at kirker if it could be done and they said it depends on who made the filler. They said the evercoat "should" be fine. I'm not a real big fan of "should be".

I have visited the abs site for several years and have always felt that Len seems to be a very reserved guy. This post is the first I have ever seen from him on another forum. It seems a bit out of character. When I read the comment about using epoxy over seams the first thing that pops in my mind is the backing strip method that is demonstrated on the abs site. Using that piece of metal sandwiched inside a door panel is a huge invitation for rust and way to much welding with all the plug welds. So when it comes to using epoxy on the outside of a repair like that who cares the rust will come from the other side of the panel anyway. I know some one will say that the seam would be sealed with seam sealer on the back but in alot of areas that is simply not possible. My point is that the overall condition of the substrate before it goes to filler or epoxy will have a much greater impact on the durabilty of a paint job that anything you can put on top of it. Work your surface to a fairly straight rust free and weld bead pinhole free piece of metal and you will end up with a good durable paint job. For all the DIY's on this board it makes good sense to strip a panel then seal it in epoxy on any restoration project just for the peace of mind that you have the metal sealed and can work an area at a time after that.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 10:11 AM
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It may be the problem if you wish to use PPG's crappy DPLF. I was a certified PPG tech the last 6 years I worked in the collision shop. I did almost no body work, strictly paint. NOT ONE PPG jobber, rep, etc. had a good thing to say about the DPLF. In fact, they all told me I should leave it alone if I didn't want to pay later. They have issues with it, and they know it, but they don't tell us that!!!

I could go on all day, BUT, I think the techniques being discussed here are geared totally toward production collision shop practices. Each shop has a different set of standards. We all have different standards we set for ourselves as well. A collision shop, as opposed to a good restoration/street rod shop, SHOULD have totally different standards.

Let's face it, under normal conditions, a repair from a collision shop doesn't HAVE to last much over 3-5 years, if that. People trade cars so often nowadays that most folks wouldn't have a clue if a repair held up for ore than 3 years or not, because they won't have the car that long. How many guys do you know that trade their hot rods that often?

My point being, this thread, as well as many others on here, are steered by collision repair gurus who think smearing bondo on a body panel is an art form, and the more the better!!

It's frustrating for some of us, that's all.

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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 10:35 AM
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Len,
Interesting response. I agree with Brian your a nice guy but perhaps sheltered.

The response came off to me as one that I have done things for 50 years this way and not changing now.

I have been to every forum at one time or another and only post on this one and one other one. Main reason is if Iím going to give out info I also want to receive info in return.
(Learn something) I want to get better at what I do I want new ideas.

This forum has 100ís of engineers, 3-4 chemists, painters, paint reps metal meet guys at least 10 that can build a complete body by hand with no filler.
We have a national champion bike builder, some of the best rod builders and restorers around. Some post often, some donít.
I learn something every day.

Yes it feels good to be smarter than everyone that posts, but if you are, youíre an ignorant fool.

My daddy always said if youíre talking, youíre not learning anything.

I would urge you to join in here and learn something, youíre never too old!

It would be good to have you!
Barry
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 10:43 AM
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It seems to me that in practice there is quite a bit of overlap between "collision shop" techniques and "restoration shop" techniques. It's not "my way or the highway". I don't want to argue with you Randy, I have the utmost respect for what you do, but just because someone decides they want to put a skim of polyester here and there does not make their vehicle "crappy" or "junk", does it? This subject has much to do with hotrodding for the DIYer, IMHO.

For those who want to avoid the epoxy/filler controversy altogether:

http://www.metalmeet.com

It's awesome what these guys can do with metal!
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 11:02 AM
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Crashtech,

My opinion USED to mirror yours. Now that I've been on both sides of it, I look at it a whole lot different. That word "restoration" get's used WAY too loosely. Hiding damage with a coat of polyester and applying a pretty paint job isn't a restoration.

By the way, I'm not arguing!!

Randy
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2005, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centerline

When we do-it-yourself guys are doing our bodywork it generally doesn't get done in a few days. In many cases the filler may sit for a week or more before being covered by anything that would seal it from the elements. The major reason I can see for using epoxy under the filler is to prevent moisture from permeating the filler and getting to the metal and then being sealed in by whatever finish coating system is used.

I don't claim to be a pro but I have seen cases where filler was left uncovered for months in a relatively humid environment before being top coated and from personal experience that's not all that uncommon when it comes to the do-it-yourself crowd. In such cases you never know how much (if any) damage moisture may have done. Also in many cases we are dealing with very old metal that may or may not have been stripped correctly in the first place, yet another situation that you won't find in a production shop.

Whether or not you agree that epoxy under filler makes sense I believe a pretty good case could be made for using it when someone is doing their own work.
For what little value my view has on this subject, I will have to agree with Centerline,, We build several cars a year, we do all our own body work, so a car will set for a while before it is ready for the paint shop,, We have ALWAYS used primer under filler, mostly because of the moisture absorbing filler, and the fact that alot of times there could be pinholes in this OLD sheetmetal that moisture could get in, and start rusting under the filler, and soon will cause the filler to come loose,and the finish paint to fail from underneath, I always spray epoxy on ALL surfaces [inside and out]of any body parts immediately after sandblasting or any other kind of bare metal, it just happens to work better for me, Just my way of doing the job,, and it has worked great for me, right or wrong,, BILL
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